Topic: Need memo assistance

[LoKe]

I'm in the Navy, currently posted to Kingston, and I'm required to submit a memo in order to keep the beard I've had for two years.   Does anyone happen to have a copy of such a memo they could let me use?  Or point me in the right direction (as far as supporting references and justification)?

I would really appreciate the help!

[LoKe]

The ref is A-AD-265-000/AG-001, under Section 2, under paragraph 5. a (3) (a), how do you write that in as a reference?

Would this be proper?

Ref:  a.  A-AD-265-000/AG-001, page 2-2-3, para 3a

[Michael O'Leary]

Ref A: A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Canadian Forces Dress Instructions

In your text, you can mention that "Ref A, page 2-2-3, para 3a states ....."

[LoKe]

Thank you very much!

[ArmyVern]

Let's see ...

You're posted to Kingston, wear a Navy uniform ... and are being required to submit a memo to keep your beard??

Exactly what Unit are you with?? As a guy wearing a Naval uniform, you do not have to request permission to have a beard everywhere you serve/every posting to new Unit. That would be like telling women they need new memos for long hair every time they switch jobs/units. You only need to request if you are clean shaven and are going back to having a beard.

From the CFDIs:

(Ch 6, Sec 2)

(3) Beards (see Figure 2-2-2) (3) Barbe (voir figure 2-2-2)
(a) Subject to procedures established
by commanders of commands,
permission to wear a beard shall
only be granted to all ranks who
wear the naval uniform, wherever
serving; all ranks on strength of an
infantry pioneer platoon; adherents
of the Sikh religion (see Section 3);
and personnel, on the direction of a
medical officer, subject to medical
reassessment at intervals not
exceeding six months. Other
personnel shall shave off their
beards.
(a) Conformément à la procédure
établie par les commandants et les
commandements, la permission de
porter la barbe n’est accordée
qu’aux militaires portant l’uniforme
de la marine, et ce, peu importe
l’endroit où ils servent; qu’aux
militaires faisant partie d’un peloton
de pionniers de l’infanterie; qu’aux
adeptes de la religion sikh (voir
section 3); qu’au personnel ayant
reçu des directives d’un médecin
militaire en vue d’un réévaluation
médicale dans au plus six mois.
Tous les autres militaires doivent
être rasés.
(b) Where beards are authorized, they
shall be worn with a moustache;
kept neatly trimmed, especially on
the lower neck and cheekbones;
and not exceed 2.5 cm (1 in.) in
bulk.
(b) Lorsque le port de la barbe est
autorisé, elle doit être
accompagnée de la moustache,
être bien taillée, particulièrement à
la base du cou et sur les joues, et
ne pas avoir plus de 2.5 cm (1 po)
d’épaisseur.
(c) When a beard is grown or removed,
identification documents shall be
replaced in accordance with
security regulations

[LoKe]

My original memo seems to have gone missing, and I've since been loaded on course and a memo is required.

[ArmyVern]

My original memo seems to have gone missing, and I've since been loaded on course and a memo is required.

Do you or do you not already have a beard?

If you do, print a copy of the ref and show it to your Section Comd; you do not require a memo as a naval uniform wearing pers to keep a beard that you already have.

[LoKe]

Do you or do you not already have a beard?

If you do, print a copy of the ref and show it to your Section Comd; you do not require a memo as a naval uniform wearing pers to keep a beard that you already have.

I do have it currently, but I have no proof that I was ever allowed to have the beard.  Maybe I'm confused but the refs seem to indicate I at least need permission, and my staff requires that I have a memo.

[ArmyVern]

I do have it currently, but I have no proof that I was ever allowed to have the beard.  Maybe I'm confused but the refs seem to indicate I at least need permission, and my staff requires that I have a memo.

You're Navy!! Personnel wearing the Naval uniform are allowed to wear beards ... unless shipboard (due to FF apparatus) or other operational requirement.

I will also guarantee you that your instructors are well aware of that factoid.

[Michael O'Leary]

m
You're Navy!! Personnel wearing the Naval uniform are allowed to wear beards ... unless shipboard (due to FF apparatus) or other operational requirement.

I will also guarantee you that your instructors are well aware of that factoid.

You're right Vern, but he's probably caught by some generic "everyone on the course with a beard needs a memo", whether the justification is a quote from the Dress Manual or an attached chit from their unit MO (for the med excuses),

[Ex Lorne]

Just to throw this out there...

CFSU(Ottawa) Home > Standing Orders state...

http://www.cfsuo.forces.gc.ca/so-op/soc-opc-03-eng.asp

Beards: Navy personnel who wish to grow full beards shall request permission in writing to discontinue shaving from their Commanding Officer/Commandant. In arriving at a decision, the Commanding Officer/Commandant shall take into account the ability of the individual to grow a beard, in addition to other service requirements. When permission has been granted, the member shall:
be issued with written authority to discontinue shaving;
not appear in public in uniform until the Commanding Officer/Commandant has approved the beard. When traveling between residence and place of duty, member shall be in civilian clothes regardless of the method of travel;
within 30 days of permission being granted to discontinue shaving, appear before his Commanding Officer or delegated authority for an assessment of acceptability of the beard for wear with CF uniform in public; if the beard is unsatisfactory, permission to discontinue shaving shall be rescinded; and
retain the beard for a minimum of 12 months and get a new military identification.

[ArmyVern]

Just to throw this out there...

CFSU(Ottawa) Home > Standing Orders state...

http://www.cfsuo.forces.gc.ca/so-op/soc-opc-03-eng.asp

Beards: Navy personnel who wish to grow full beards shall request permission in writing to discontinue shaving from their Commanding Officer/Commandant. In arriving at a decision, the Commanding Officer/Commandant shall take into account the ability of the individual to grow a beard, in addition to other service requirements. When permission has been granted, the member shall:
be issued with written authority to discontinue shaving;
not appear in public in uniform until the Commanding Officer/Commandant has approved the beard. When traveling between residence and place of duty, member shall be in civilian clothes regardless of the method of travel;
within 30 days of permission being granted to discontinue shaving, appear before his Commanding Officer or delegated authority for an assessment of acceptability of the beard for wear with CF uniform in public; if the beard is unsatisfactory, permission to discontinue shaving shall be rescinded; and
retain the beard for a minimum of 12 months and get a new military identification.

Yes. For Naval pers wishing to grow a beard (ie: those who wish to DISCONTINUE shaving) ...

He is Navy and already HAS the beard. His new Unit is requesting a memo ... not required.

[Jim Seggie]

You're right Vern, but he's probably caught by some generic "everyone on the course with a beard needs a memo", whether the justification is a quote from the Dress Manual or an attached chit from their unit MO (for the med excuses),

And common sense be damned!! 

[Michael O'Leary]

If it was common we wouldn't spend so much time talking about it.

[PuckChaser]

He's going to CFSCE, its a quagmire of wierd rules sometimes.

[dapaterson]

He's going to CFSCE, its a quagmire of weird rules sometimes.

Fixed that for you.

(Though the whole "quagmire of weird rules" can be applied to the whole of Kingston, it seems...)

[Jim Seggie]

If it was common we wouldn't spend so much time talking about it.

You, sir, are correct!

He's going to CFSCE, its a quagmire of wierd rules sometimes.

Signals Corp, weird rules....sounds like the entire CF somedays!!

[Occam]

By no means am I actually advocating that you do this, but I would continue sending them back to the Dress Manual until they get it through their skulls that you submit a request to cease shaving, not to request to continue to cease shaving.  Somewhere along the line, common sense has gotten a swift kick in the 'nads.  You probably showed up for course after a day or two of travel.  Unless you're Cro-Magnon man, you didn't grow the beard while in transit, and you probably didn't get your ID card changed without having to produce your memo.  Your staff needs to find something productive to do without creating additional administrative workload.

If my days in uniform weren't numbered, I'd grow a beard myself and get myself loaded on a course down at CFSCE so that I could watch a few heads explode from the migraines that I'd cause.  I wish to hell that someone would strangle the living crap out of the stupidity that seems to be infecting several organizations.

[ModlrMike]

I do have it currently, but I have no proof that I was ever allowed to have the beard.  Maybe I'm confused but the refs seem to indicate I at least need permission, and my staff requires that I have a memo.

Is your initial request not on your Pers file or even UER? Notwithstanding rather than tie yourself up in knots, submit the memo with the reference provided here, and carry on. Something simple and succinct, no more that one or two sentences. Attach the reference to your memo.

Sometimes it's easier to cave into stupidity than fight it. The unfortunate outcome is that the stupidity persists. As someone wiser than me said:

"Never argue with a fool, someone watching might not be able to tell the difference between you."

That being said, I agree that you shouldn't have to go through this.

[Beadwindow 7]

He's going to CFSCE, its a quagmire of wierd rules sometimes.

Or to quote a General I once heard "a conundrum of ***kery"

[Occam]

Is your initial request not on your Pers file or even UER? Notwithstanding rather than tie yourself up in knots, submit the memo with the reference provided here, and carry on. Something simple and succinct, no more that one or two sentences. Attach the reference to your memo.

Sometimes it's easier to cave into stupidity than fight it. The unfortunate outcome is that the stupidity persists.

This is definitely the easiest, and probably best course of action.  Personally, I'm not one to make things easy for those who fail to learn from their mistakes and employ common sense whenever possible. 

[Simian Turner]

Sample shaving request from a Naval School is attached that may assist you.

[LoKe]

Sample shaving request from a Naval School is attached that may assist you.

Thanks for that!

[ModlrMike]

Personally, I'm not one to make things easy for those who fail to learn from their mistakes and employ common sense whenever possible. 

Normally, neither am I. It comes down to three words though:

cost benefit ratio

[BernDawg]

Are you sporting a beard on your ID?  If so, I would imagine it's case closed. If not then I see where the request for authorization is coming from. Either way good luck. I always disliked the "on this course" mentality experienced at some institutions.