Topic: Need memo assistance

[LoKe]

I'm in the Navy, currently posted to Kingston, and I'm required to submit a memo in order to keep the beard I've had for two years.   Does anyone happen to have a copy of such a memo they could let me use?  Or point me in the right direction (as far as supporting references and justification)?

I would really appreciate the help!

[LoKe]

The ref is A-AD-265-000/AG-001, under Section 2, under paragraph 5. a (3) (a), how do you write that in as a reference?

Would this be proper?

Ref:  a.  A-AD-265-000/AG-001, page 2-2-3, para 3a

[Michael O'Leary]

Ref A: A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Canadian Forces Dress Instructions

In your text, you can mention that "Ref A, page 2-2-3, para 3a states ....."

[LoKe]

Thank you very much!

[ArmyVern]

Let's see ...

You're posted to Kingston, wear a Navy uniform ... and are being required to submit a memo to keep your beard??

Exactly what Unit are you with?? As a guy wearing a Naval uniform, you do not have to request permission to have a beard everywhere you serve/every posting to new Unit. That would be like telling women they need new memos for long hair every time they switch jobs/units. You only need to request if you are clean shaven and are going back to having a beard.

From the CFDIs:

(Ch 6, Sec 2)

(3) Beards (see Figure 2-2-2) (3) Barbe (voir figure 2-2-2)
(a) Subject to procedures established
by commanders of commands,
permission to wear a beard shall
only be granted to all ranks who
wear the naval uniform, wherever
serving; all ranks on strength of an
infantry pioneer platoon; adherents
of the Sikh religion (see Section 3);
and personnel, on the direction of a
medical officer, subject to medical
reassessment at intervals not
exceeding six months. Other
personnel shall shave off their
beards.
(a) Conformément à la procédure
établie par les commandants et les
commandements, la permission de
porter la barbe n’est accordée
qu’aux militaires portant l’uniforme
de la marine, et ce, peu importe
l’endroit où ils servent; qu’aux
militaires faisant partie d’un peloton
de pionniers de l’infanterie; qu’aux
adeptes de la religion sikh (voir
section 3); qu’au personnel ayant
reçu des directives d’un médecin
militaire en vue d’un réévaluation
médicale dans au plus six mois.
Tous les autres militaires doivent
être rasés.
(b) Where beards are authorized, they
shall be worn with a moustache;
kept neatly trimmed, especially on
the lower neck and cheekbones;
and not exceed 2.5 cm (1 in.) in
bulk.
(b) Lorsque le port de la barbe est
autorisé, elle doit être
accompagnée de la moustache,
être bien taillée, particulièrement à
la base du cou et sur les joues, et
ne pas avoir plus de 2.5 cm (1 po)
d’épaisseur.
(c) When a beard is grown or removed,
identification documents shall be
replaced in accordance with
security regulations

[LoKe]

My original memo seems to have gone missing, and I've since been loaded on course and a memo is required.

[ArmyVern]

My original memo seems to have gone missing, and I've since been loaded on course and a memo is required.

Do you or do you not already have a beard?

If you do, print a copy of the ref and show it to your Section Comd; you do not require a memo as a naval uniform wearing pers to keep a beard that you already have.

[LoKe]

Do you or do you not already have a beard?

If you do, print a copy of the ref and show it to your Section Comd; you do not require a memo as a naval uniform wearing pers to keep a beard that you already have.

I do have it currently, but I have no proof that I was ever allowed to have the beard.  Maybe I'm confused but the refs seem to indicate I at least need permission, and my staff requires that I have a memo.

[ArmyVern]

I do have it currently, but I have no proof that I was ever allowed to have the beard.  Maybe I'm confused but the refs seem to indicate I at least need permission, and my staff requires that I have a memo.

You're Navy!! Personnel wearing the Naval uniform are allowed to wear beards ... unless shipboard (due to FF apparatus) or other operational requirement.

I will also guarantee you that your instructors are well aware of that factoid.

[Michael O'Leary]

m
You're Navy!! Personnel wearing the Naval uniform are allowed to wear beards ... unless shipboard (due to FF apparatus) or other operational requirement.

I will also guarantee you that your instructors are well aware of that factoid.

You're right Vern, but he's probably caught by some generic "everyone on the course with a beard needs a memo", whether the justification is a quote from the Dress Manual or an attached chit from their unit MO (for the med excuses),

[Ex Lorne]

Just to throw this out there...

CFSU(Ottawa) Home > Standing Orders state...

http://www.cfsuo.forces.gc.ca/so-op/soc-opc-03-eng.asp

Beards: Navy personnel who wish to grow full beards shall request permission in writing to discontinue shaving from their Commanding Officer/Commandant. In arriving at a decision, the Commanding Officer/Commandant shall take into account the ability of the individual to grow a beard, in addition to other service requirements. When permission has been granted, the member shall:
be issued with written authority to discontinue shaving;
not appear in public in uniform until the Commanding Officer/Commandant has approved the beard. When traveling between residence and place of duty, member shall be in civilian clothes regardless of the method of travel;
within 30 days of permission being granted to discontinue shaving, appear before his Commanding Officer or delegated authority for an assessment of acceptability of the beard for wear with CF uniform in public; if the beard is unsatisfactory, permission to discontinue shaving shall be rescinded; and
retain the beard for a minimum of 12 months and get a new military identification.

[ArmyVern]

Just to throw this out there...

CFSU(Ottawa) Home > Standing Orders state...

http://www.cfsuo.forces.gc.ca/so-op/soc-opc-03-eng.asp

Beards: Navy personnel who wish to grow full beards shall request permission in writing to discontinue shaving from their Commanding Officer/Commandant. In arriving at a decision, the Commanding Officer/Commandant shall take into account the ability of the individual to grow a beard, in addition to other service requirements. When permission has been granted, the member shall:
be issued with written authority to discontinue shaving;
not appear in public in uniform until the Commanding Officer/Commandant has approved the beard. When traveling between residence and place of duty, member shall be in civilian clothes regardless of the method of travel;
within 30 days of permission being granted to discontinue shaving, appear before his Commanding Officer or delegated authority for an assessment of acceptability of the beard for wear with CF uniform in public; if the beard is unsatisfactory, permission to discontinue shaving shall be rescinded; and
retain the beard for a minimum of 12 months and get a new military identification.

Yes. For Naval pers wishing to grow a beard (ie: those who wish to DISCONTINUE shaving) ...

He is Navy and already HAS the beard. His new Unit is requesting a memo ... not required.

[Jim Seggie]

You're right Vern, but he's probably caught by some generic "everyone on the course with a beard needs a memo", whether the justification is a quote from the Dress Manual or an attached chit from their unit MO (for the med excuses),

And common sense be damned!! 

[Michael O'Leary]

If it was common we wouldn't spend so much time talking about it.

[PuckChaser]

He's going to CFSCE, its a quagmire of wierd rules sometimes.

[dapaterson]

He's going to CFSCE, its a quagmire of weird rules sometimes.

Fixed that for you.

(Though the whole "quagmire of weird rules" can be applied to the whole of Kingston, it seems...)

[Jim Seggie]

If it was common we wouldn't spend so much time talking about it.

You, sir, are correct!

He's going to CFSCE, its a quagmire of wierd rules sometimes.

Signals Corp, weird rules....sounds like the entire CF somedays!!

[Occam]

By no means am I actually advocating that you do this, but I would continue sending them back to the Dress Manual until they get it through their skulls that you submit a request to cease shaving, not to request to continue to cease shaving.  Somewhere along the line, common sense has gotten a swift kick in the 'nads.  You probably showed up for course after a day or two of travel.  Unless you're Cro-Magnon man, you didn't grow the beard while in transit, and you probably didn't get your ID card changed without having to produce your memo.  Your staff needs to find something productive to do without creating additional administrative workload.

If my days in uniform weren't numbered, I'd grow a beard myself and get myself loaded on a course down at CFSCE so that I could watch a few heads explode from the migraines that I'd cause.  I wish to hell that someone would strangle the living crap out of the stupidity that seems to be infecting several organizations.

[ModlrMike]

I do have it currently, but I have no proof that I was ever allowed to have the beard.  Maybe I'm confused but the refs seem to indicate I at least need permission, and my staff requires that I have a memo.

Is your initial request not on your Pers file or even UER? Notwithstanding rather than tie yourself up in knots, submit the memo with the reference provided here, and carry on. Something simple and succinct, no more that one or two sentences. Attach the reference to your memo.

Sometimes it's easier to cave into stupidity than fight it. The unfortunate outcome is that the stupidity persists. As someone wiser than me said:

"Never argue with a fool, someone watching might not be able to tell the difference between you."

That being said, I agree that you shouldn't have to go through this.

[Beadwindow 7]

He's going to CFSCE, its a quagmire of wierd rules sometimes.

Or to quote a General I once heard "a conundrum of ***kery"

[Occam]

Is your initial request not on your Pers file or even UER? Notwithstanding rather than tie yourself up in knots, submit the memo with the reference provided here, and carry on. Something simple and succinct, no more that one or two sentences. Attach the reference to your memo.

Sometimes it's easier to cave into stupidity than fight it. The unfortunate outcome is that the stupidity persists.

This is definitely the easiest, and probably best course of action.  Personally, I'm not one to make things easy for those who fail to learn from their mistakes and employ common sense whenever possible. 

[Simian Turner]

Sample shaving request from a Naval School is attached that may assist you.

[LoKe]

Sample shaving request from a Naval School is attached that may assist you.

Thanks for that!

[ModlrMike]

Personally, I'm not one to make things easy for those who fail to learn from their mistakes and employ common sense whenever possible. 

Normally, neither am I. It comes down to three words though:

cost benefit ratio

[BernDawg]

Are you sporting a beard on your ID?  If so, I would imagine it's case closed. If not then I see where the request for authorization is coming from. Either way good luck. I always disliked the "on this course" mentality experienced at some institutions.

[Ex Lorne]

Are you sporting a beard on your ID?  If so, I would imagine it's case closed. If not then I see where the request for authorization is coming from. Either way good luck. I always disliked the "on this course" mentality experienced at some institutions.

That is a good point... if your ID card has a beard, the you should be good to go!  But of course if it doesn't, well then i can see where your staff is coming from.

as they say.... "It is what it is"! 

[LoKe]

I appreciate all the assistance, but the matter is closed.  My memo was returned to me today, denied on the basis that I'm a QL3 student.

[Occam]

I appreciate all the assistance, but the matter is closed.  My memo was returned to me today, denied on the basis that I'm a QL3 student.

Denied by whom?

That's odd, I don't recall seeing anything in CFP 265 about QL3 students not being allowed to wear beards.  A lot of things about the C&E trades are starting to make sense now that I've seen some of the stuff coming out of CFSCE.

[LoKe]

I'm not even really sure.  The memo stopped half way up the chain.  The QL3 course director put a minute on the memo not recommending approval, and it was given back to me.

[Occam]

Now that's interesting.  Whoever your QL3 course director is likely doesn't have authority to grant or deny your request, so they shouldn't be intercepting your correspondence addressed to the CO/Commandant and firing it back at you.  What rank is this course director?

[Jim Seggie]

I'm not even really sure.  The memo stopped half way up the chain.  The QL3 course director put a minute on the memo not recommending approval, and it was given back to me.

That's BS - it should have been forwarded to the Commandant, or the RSM. NOT the course director.

[LoKe]

I'm going to try and deal with this properly on my own end and see what recourse there is, rather than dropping names and ranks and make this a bigger issue than it is.  The biggest confusion that I have is that the memo is dressed to the Tp WO.  I see two minutes on the memo, one recommending from an instructor, and one not recommending from the course director.  I thought there had to be a minute from the Tp WO denying it outright.

I'll redress it to the school commandant and see what happens.  I doubt it'll even make it back up the chain.

[Occam]

The Tp WO does NOT have the authority to grant or deny permission to cease shaving.  Only the CO/Commandant (as the case may be) has the authority to grant or deny the request.  Now, it's entirely possible that the CO/Commandant of CFCSE may have delegated this authority, but I'll bet you my next paycheque that he didn't delegate it to the WO level.  I'm guessing the course director is below the Tp WO?

CFSCE Standing Orders should have a "Dress" section which I'm sure deals with the procedures for cease shaving requests, and your memo should have been addressed to whoever can grant that request.  The memo will hit various personnel on the way up, and they can only recommend or not recommend, but they can't block the correspondence.

[LoKe]

I was told from my staff to dress it up to the Tp WO when I asked.  I'll redress it to the proper authority and find out what the result is.

[Occam]

I was told from my staff to dress it up to the Tp WO when I asked.  I'll redress it to the proper authority and find out what the result is.

I'm betting your staff was too lazy to look it up.  I'll look at the CFSCE Standing Orders for you tomorrow and post back here what I find out.  Then you'll have a reference to back yourself up.

[LoKe]

Thanks, I appreciate any assistance that could help me handle this in a proper way.

[ModlrMike]

I'm not even really sure.  The memo stopped half way up the chain.  The QL3 course director put a minute on the memo not recommending approval, and it was given back to me.

Inappropriate! Dress is the purview of the CO as advised by the RSM or equivalent. Neither your Troop WO nor Course Director have the authority to issue such an edict, and both should know that. At first, I thought this was simply a pro-forma exercise, now I see it's plain ignorance of the rules, and failure of the supervisor to educate themselves.

If your instructors continue to direct you to shave, a Redress of Grievance will get their attention. I defy them to stop that before it gets to the CO.

[Kat Stevens]

WTF is a "Course Director"?

[CDN Aviator]

WTF is a "Course Director"?

"Course NCO"

[Jim Seggie]

"Course NCO"

Fancy Schmancy title for the Admin NCO.

[Occam]

Well, that was an exercise in frustration.

All I could find was:

CFSCE Standing Orders - http://cfsce.kingston.mil.ca/files/SOP's/STANDING%20ORDERS.doc (DWAN link)
310.   DRESS

310.1   The dress of all military personnel at CFSCE shall be in accordance with Canadian Forces Dress Regulations and shall be of high standard.  Authorised orders of dress and permissible seasonal variations are contained in CFSCE Routine Orders.

All of the CFSCE SOPS are "under revision" and not published.

Only the most recent edition of CFSCE Weekly Routine Orders and CFSCE Routine Orders (why they have two, I have no idea) are published to the DWAN, and there are no dress issues addressed in them.

Now, a casual survey of other units in all three elements show a smattering of approving authorities from the CO down to the Regulating Chief (in that case, at CFNES would be a PO1/CPO2 in charge of student administration).  CFNOS requires the Div Cdr's approval, which is at the LCdr level.  MARCORDS say CO/Commandant.  That's pretty meaningless info to this discussion, but there it is.

Regardless, the memo you submitted, if it was submitted to the Tp WO, should have been delivered to the Tp WO with minutes attached by those below him/her in the CoC.  Only then should it be returned to you after the Tp WO has approved or denied the request.  That's basic military correspondence 101, and doesn't matter where you are or what unit you're in.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.  If CFSCE has an established policy for requesting to cease shaving, they've done a pretty poor job of publishing it to the masses.

In general, I find locating Army policies akin to pulling out my fingernails with my Leatherman.

[PMedMoe]

In general, I find locating Army policies akin to pulling out my fingernails with my Leatherman.

But more painful.   

[CountDC]

Too bad you are not able to produce a copy of your original approval - have you checked div notes? Contacted the Ship/unit where it was approved (if done properly they will have a copy on file).  Then it would be a matter of them trying to show where they have the authority to rescind the approval.  Neither an ID card or already having a beard is proof that it was approved.  Wouldn't be the first time a sailor grew it without approval and managed to get an ID renewed.

I question the TP WO having the authority to deny the request.  I believe it should be only the CO to deny or approve it and I don't understand why they would deny it when you already have it.  Now if it was a request to grow one I could see the issue while on course.

I think you may be caught in the old "why should he be treated dif" situation where they will try to block you at every turn.

If you are up to it I would encourage you to redress it all the way up.  May not help you but could save some other sailors a hassle down the road.  The wearing of beards is a point of pride for the navy and I am sure the forced shaving of a sailor will get some attention.

Good luck.

[Jim Seggie]

I appreciate all the assistance, but the matter is closed.  My memo was returned to me today, denied on the basis that I'm a QL3 student.

What trade  are you taking QL3 for?

[Occam]

What trade  are you taking QL3 for?

Secret Squirrel = Comm Rsch.

[LoKe]

Well, I'm just going to drop the issue. I appreciate all the assistance, but the school doesn't recognize it the way most seem to. Apparently the course direcotr put his minutes on it because it wasn't dressed up properly, and informed me that the RSM has given his input on the matter and it will be denied if I put it up again.

I've caught enough crap for the issue already. I'll just wait until I'm posted and have it handled properly.

[Robert0288]

Sucks but good luck on your QL3.  You mod1 or 2?

[Occam]

About all I can add is that not long ago, I was asked if I wanted to volunteer for a tasking to teach at CFSCE.  I thought about it briefly, but said no.  In retrospect, am I ever glad I turned it down.  If they can't manage a cease shaving chit without resorting to skull**ckery like that, I'd hate to see how CFSCE deals with personnel on a grander scale.

[211RadOp]

I talked with an MWO from CFSCE about this tonight on the ball diamond.  We think your Course Director is expelling bovine fecal matter.  He was very surprised that the memo did not go to your course WO as that is were it was addressed to.  His suggestion is to talk to your SSM if you want to push this or to have the clerk at your home unit pull up your original memo and fax/e-mail it to you.

[ModlrMike]

Why is this not going to the CO? I can understand your NCOs sending your memo back to you for correction or amplification, but it is not their place to decide issues of dress, but to implement them. The CO on advice of the SM makes the rules, the rest of us follow them.

[ballz]

I would also like to see you piss in somebody's cornflakes... I have nothing to add really except for an additional supportive shove

[medicineman]

About all I can add is that not long ago, I was asked if I wanted to volunteer for a tasking to teach at CFSCE.  I thought about it briefly, but said no.  In retrospect, am I ever glad I turned it down.  If they can't manage a cease shaving chit without resorting to skull**ckery like that, I'd hate to see how CFSCE deals with personnel on a grander scale.

I saw lots of issues like that when I was in Kngston...had a guy get sent to sick parade because he was a non-smoker stuck in a room with 3 smokers (when they could smoke in their rooms).  The Sqn Clerk was too lazy to make a room change, so told him he needed a chit from us to change rooms - I wrote him one.  20 minutes later I got hauled into the Clinic WO's office because I wrote "This isn't a medical issue, it's your's so do your f*&king job".  Apparently Cpl Med A's aren't supposed say that to Sgt Clerks, even if it's true.  I could go on, but I think the point is made about CFSCE.

This young MCpl has to learn his place though by the sound of things...resubmit the memo .

MM

[LoKe]

I received clarification on the issue today.  My course director told me that since I dressed it to the Tp WO, and not higher, than it was delegated down to him to have my memo denied.  This was decided by the RSM, and I was told I could redress my memo but it would be denied by the RSM himself.  Rather than waste anyone's time or effort doing something that would lead to the same result, I've decided to cease my efforts.  Once I'm qualified and posted I'll be sure to submit another memo and keep a copy this time.

[Occam]

I received clarification on the issue today.  My course director told me that since I dressed it to the Tp WO, and not higher, than it was delegated down to him to have my memo denied.  This was decided by the RSM, and I was told I could redress my memo but it would be denied by the RSM himself.  Rather than waste anyone's time or effort doing something that would lead to the same result, I've decided to cease my efforts.  Once I'm qualified and posted I'll be sure to submit another memo and keep a copy this time.

Now this is going way beyond plain silliness.  If I understand correctly, and I hope I am, your course director (who I presume is a MCpl/Sgt) told you that since you addressed it to the wrong person (the Tp WO), and not to someone who actually has the authority to grant the request, then somehow the RSM has gotten involved and directed the Tp WO to deny the request, even though the Tp WO doesn't have the authority to grant or deny it in the first place?  That this is all being caused because it was wrongly addressed in the first place?  But according to your earlier post, your course staff was who told you to address the memo to your Tp WO?

I was told from my staff to dress it up to the Tp WO when I asked.  I'll redress it to the proper authority and find out what the result is.

WTF?

If everything is as you've presented it, then I'm floored.  I'm just floored.

[LoKe]

I'm floored too, but if I push the matter any further it'll only make my situation worse than it has already become.

[Retired AF Guy]

Now this is going way beyond plain silliness.  If I understand correctly, and I hope I am, your course director (who I presume is a MCpl/Sgt) told you that since you addressed it to the wrong person (the Tp WO), and not to someone who actually has the authority to grant the request, then somehow the RSM has gotten involved and directed the Tp WO to deny the request, even though the Tp WO doesn't have the authority to grant or deny it in the first place?  That this is all being caused because it was wrongly addressed in the first place?  But according to your earlier post, your course staff was who told you to address the memo to your Tp WO?

WTF?

If everything is as you've presented it, then I'm floored.  I'm just floored.

Ahhh...Catch-22.

[Jim Seggie]

I'm floored too, but if I push the matter any further it'll only make my situation worse than it has already become.

I quite agree. Pick your battles wisely. If you won this one, the call would go out that you are a shyte disturber and that would do you no good.

[Simian Turner]

Did/does the course have Joining Instructions?  Is there a Course Senior binder?  School Routine Orders?

Let's cut to the chase - this thread began two weeks ago.   Your request has gone up the chain and was denied.  Are you clean shaven or do you still have beard?  How long is your course?  How long do want to stay on the instructor's problem child radar?  It is hot and humid, why not opt for a clean shaven low profile until the course is done.

At this point are you still sporting a beard, still want to challenge the system and want to jeopardize your QL3 qualification and perhaps your future in the military - take the risk, ask to speak to the RSM then tell him to charge you and let the CO or Delegated Officer decide. 

I would sooner be a grayman than a problem child.

[ModlrMike]

...I was told I could redress my memo but it would be denied by the RSM himself. 

The RSM doesn't have the authority to deny a grievance addressed to the CO.

Given the amount of canine copulating this issue has resulted in, I suggest you comply and move on. Once you get to your unit, you'll be on much firmer ground. I still have to ask what your ID card picture looks like; that should have settle the question.

[Occam]

Did/does the course have Joining Instructions?  Is there a Course Senior binder?  School Routine Orders?

Let's cut to the chase - this thread began two weeks ago.   Your request has gone up the chain and was denied.  Are you clean shaven or do you still have beard?  How long is your course?  How long do want to stay on the instructor's problem child radar?  It is hot and humid, why not opt for a clean shaven low profile until the course is done.

At this point are you still sporting a beard, still want to challenge the system and want to jeopardize your QL3 qualification and perhaps your future in the military - take the risk, ask to speak to the RSM then tell him to charge you and let the CO or Delegated Officer decide. 

I would sooner be a grayman than a problem child.

This is the type of response that gets my goat.

If the issue were a gray area of policy, I would agree with you.

However, it's not a gray area.  He's in a Naval uniform, not posted to a sea-going unit (beards are verboten at sea now), and has requested to cease shaving as he was directed by his course staff.  He has complied with every directive and criterion for having a beard.  I'll assume the beard looks presentable, and that this isn't a case of being directed to shave because he looks like a vagrant.  It's not like he's asking for gender reassignment surgery, he's requesting to cease shaving.  Every other unit in the CF has an established policy for dealing with this, but CFSCE wants to march to the beat of its own drummer.

Nobody should be chastised nor marked as a shyte disturber for following established procedure.  Someone in his chain of command needs to go to bat for him, but it appears that people are going out of their way to put roadblocks up.  That's poor leadership, period.

[recceguy]

So he requested to cease shaving and was denied, as he is on course. The course has decided no beards. I wasn't aware that everyone who is in the navy is 'entitled' to grow a beard, under any circumstance or at any time they wished, save for sea duty apparently, just because they are sea element. He requested, he was denied by his superiors. He can try again after course, with his new CoC.

[ModlrMike]

So he requested to cease shaving and was denied, as he is on course. The course has decided no beards. I wasn't aware that everyone who is in the navy is 'entitled' to grow a beard, under any circumstance or at any time they wished, save for sea duty apparently, just because they are sea element. He requested, he was denied by his superiors. He can try again after course, with his new CoC.

The point is not so much that he was denied; that's a quite reasonable outcome. The issue is he was denied by those not in authority to do so. A much different kettle of fish.

[CDN Aviator]

The point is not so much that he was denied; that's a quite reasonable outcome. The issue is he was denied by those not in authority to do so. A much different kettle of fish.

Could the CO not have delegated that authority down to the RSM ?

[Simian Turner]

This is the type of response that gets my goat.

If the issue were a gray area of policy, I would agree with you.

However, it's not a gray area.  He's in a Naval uniform, not posted to a sea-going unit (beards are verboten at sea now), and has requested to cease shaving as he was directed by his course staff.  He has complied with every directive and criterion for having a beard.  I'll assume the beard looks presentable, and that this isn't a case of being directed to shave because he looks like a vagrant.  It's not like he's asking for gender reassignment surgery, he's requesting to cease shaving.  Every other unit in the CF has an established policy for dealing with this, but CFSCE wants to march to the beat of its own drummer.

Nobody should be chastised nor marked as a shyte disturber for following established procedure.  Someone in his chain of command needs to go to bat for him, but it appears that people are going out of their way to put roadblocks up.  That's poor leadership, period.

I think that gathering advice through an online anonymous forum to counter a chain of command's decision is risky.  We have met the original intent of the poster - "Memo assistance", it was not "Could you please help me sort out my School".

This is not helpful - "Every other unit in the CF has an established policy for dealing with this.."  Are you sure 'every' is the appropriate word choice, have you personally checked every unit?  This individual has not yet completed his QL3 training.  He is on a purple trades training (i.e., all three elements are represented).  In my experience (more than 10 years at Recruit and Combat Arms schools) it is easier to maintain a single standard for male grooming.

Next we will be advising that he can wear a black undershirt despite his staff telling him otherwise.  I think we have to remember that School settings are often different from units.

[NEM3sis]

I think that gathering advice through an online anonymous forum to counter a chain of command's decision is risky.  We have met the original intent of the poster - "Memo assistance", it was not "Could you please help me sort out my School".

This is not helpful - "Every other unit in the CF has an established policy for dealing with this.."  Are you sure 'every' is the appropriate word choice, have you personally checked every unit?  This individual has not yet completed his QL3 training.  He is on a purple trades training (i.e., all three elements are represented).  In my experience (more than 10 years at Recruit and Combat Arms schools) it is easier to maintain a single standard for male grooming.

Next we will be advising that he can wear a black undershirt despite his staff telling him otherwise.  I think we have to remember that School settings are often different from units.

black undershirt is already a go since we have to wear our NCD
I am on my QL5, same trade, same building.
all the Navy personnel on my course are from the same (field) unit where our dress of the day is Cadpat, we resquested thru a memo to be allowed to wear our unit dress of the day as we are attache-posted to CFSCE unlike QL3's...request was denied by our course director (PO2) the day he was wearing CADPAT...go figure 

[Occam]

black undershirt is already a go since we have to wear our NCD
I am on my QL5, same trade, same building.
all the Navy personnel on my course are from the same (field) unit where our dress of the day is Cadpat, we resquested thru a memo to be allowed to wear our unit dress of the day as we are attache-posted to CFSCE unlike QL3's...request was denied by our course director (PO2) the day he was wearing CADPAT...go figure 

I know I'm going to regret asking this question, but here goes:

Does the PO2 course director (or any of the other "Naval" attired members of the staff) sport a beard?

[NEM3sis]

actually now that you mention it the new QL5 course director, another PO2 (posting season eh) does have a beard

[Occam]

actually now that you mention it the new QL5 course director, another PO2 (posting season eh) does have a beard

Why yes...yes, I do indeed regret asking the question. 

[LoKe]

Why yes...yes, I do indeed regret asking the question. 

I think now you understand my frustration a little more.

[LoKe]

Did/does the course have Joining Instructions?  Is there a Course Senior binder?  School Routine Orders?

Yes, yes, no.

Let's cut to the chase - this thread began two weeks ago.   Your request has gone up the chain and was denied.  Are you clean shaven or do you still have beard?  How long is your course?  How long do want to stay on the instructor's problem child radar?  It is hot and humid, why not opt for a clean shaven low profile until the course is done.

Clean shaven now.  I had the beard for nearly two months of the course, then was told to submit a memo, and while waiting I was told to shave until a conclusion was reached.  Course is four months.  I've dropped the issue in order to prevent any more drama.

At this point are you still sporting a beard, still want to challenge the system and want to jeopardize your QL3 qualification and perhaps your future in the military - take the risk, ask to speak to the RSM then tell him to charge you and let the CO or Delegated Officer decide. 

I'm clean shaven now.  I know I won't win this battle so there's no sense in wasting anyone's time and making me "that guy" at this point. 

I would sooner be a grayman than a problem child.

I never made a very good grayman, but I'm usually reasonable when choosing my battles.  I pushed this issue a bit and they pushed back hard.  I'll continue to discuss the situation in this thread if there are other questions, but the issue, in my mind, is dropped.

[LoKe]

Also, I feel compelled to explain my perspective on the situation (merely the beard itself).  Two years ago I was ordered by a staff member (while on PAT pl) to go to the MIR due to excessive skin irritation caused by shaving.  There I was given a chit in order to cease shaving.  When I was later attached posted to 21EW Regt, I was authorized to cease shaving on the basis that I was in the Navy.  This was the best route, to me, as it would simplify my situation in the sense that I would no longer have to go to the MIR to have my chit renewed (I was on a temporary chit twice).  Now that the memo has been denied at the school, I can't go back to the MIR and get a new chit for the same reason, as it would blatantly appear as if I were subverting their orders and authority.

That's mainly the reason I even pushed the issue in the first place.

EDIT: I believe I answered this question before, but it was asked again.  My ID does not show me wearing a beard.  This is a shortcoming on my part, as I didn't properly read the regs and I misinterpreted the requirement.  But as mentioned before, even if I did have it on my ID, it would not represent authority to wear it.

[Kirsten Luomala]

Also, I feel compelled to explain my perspective on the situation (merely the beard itself).  Two years ago I was ordered by a staff member (while on PAT pl) to go to the MIR due to excessive skin irritation caused by shaving.  There I was given a chit in order to cease shaving.  When I was later attached posted to 21EW Regt, I was authorized to cease shaving on the basis that I was in the Navy.  This was the best route, to me, as it would simplify my situation in the sense that I would no longer have to go to the MIR to have my chit renewed (I was on a temporary chit twice).  Now that the memo has been denied at the school, I can't go back to the MIR and get a new chit for the same reason, as it would blatantly appear as if I were subverting their orders and authority.

That's mainly the reason I even pushed the issue in the first place.

EDIT: I believe I answered this question before, but it was asked again.  My ID does not show me wearing a beard.  This is a shortcoming on my part, as I didn't properly read the regs and I misinterpreted the requirement.  But as mentioned before, even if I did have it on my ID, it would not represent authority to wear it.

If that is the case and you do have a true issue with shaving you can get a permanent category to reflect the shaving issue regardless of what element you are.  I have placed a few pers in my time on restrictions for no shaving that is reflected on their medical docs that don't require renewing chits every 30 days.  I would suggest that when your done your course, either do the memo due to navy uniform in which if not reflected in your pers file or you having a copy this issue could arise again.  Or see the MIR get a dermatologist referral and get a permanent category reflecting the issue.

[PuckChaser]

Was the medical issue listed on your memo? If it was, you're not subverting anyone by going to the MIR again, you informed them of the issue.

[Occam]

About all I can add is that not long ago, I was asked if I wanted to volunteer for a tasking to teach at CFSCE.  I thought about it briefly, but said no.  In retrospect, am I ever glad I turned it down. 

I got asked again this morning if I was interested in another instructor tasking at CFSCE, this time from November to March.  I'm pretty sure the A/BSM heard my snort clear across the building, and one floor down.   

Was the medical issue listed on your memo? If it was, you're not subverting anyone by going to the MIR again, you informed them of the issue.

What he said.  End the silliness once and for all and be done with them.

[Beadwindow 7]

I got asked again this morning if I was interested in another instructor tasking at CFSCE, this time from November to March.  I'm pretty sure the A/BSM heard my snort clear across the building, and one floor down.

Didn't want to try to change it from  inside?

There's a reason some of us call it the CF School of C**k Enforcement