Author Topic: Election 2015  (Read 23062 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline mariomike

  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 197,120
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,834
    • The job.
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2011, 22:24:53 »
The CLC was a political force with which to recon; unions were big and powerful. A lot has changed in 50 years.

Not sure if it was posted here. But, for what it is worth regarding those changes:
The Globe and Mail (  July 18, 2011 ) reports a "... a precipitous drop in Canadian private-sector unionization rates, down to 16 per cent. In contrast, public-sector unionization rates have grown steadily to 71 per cent."

From the same article, regarding the power of "government unions":
"Taxpayer-financed monopoly status has empowered government unions to extract ever more extravagant wages, benefits and even “no contracting out” clauses that block competition. Strike-fearing governments have repeatedly capitulated to these demands."

Offline E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 191,245
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,361
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2011, 07:35:27 »
The NDP leadership contest is germane, maybe crucial, to the 2015 election ~ the NDP leader may well shape Canadians' choice for second place.

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the National Post, is more on the internal politics of Saint Jack's party:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/09/05/don-macpherson-ndp-leadership-drama-is-worthy-of-shakespeare/
Quote
NDP leadership drama is worthy of Shakespeare

Postmedia News

Last Updated: Sep 6, 2011

By Don Macpherson

MONTREAL — The New Democratic Party should hold its leadership convention in Stratford, Ont., because the drama surrounding the succession of Jack Layton has been positively Shakespearean.

Consider the cast of characters: The dying leader. His wife. His advisors. His heir apparent. And the enemies plotting against the heir apparent — who may include the other main characters, including the dying leader.

The plot so far: The day of Layton’s death, his widow, Olivia Chow, published a letter written by Layton with her help and that of his closest advisers and dated two days before his death.


It was his political will, and it included his recommendation that the NDP elect his successor “as early as possible in the New Year, on approximately the same timelines as in 2003,” referring to the party’s last leadership election.

At the time, it appeared that his Quebec lieutenant, Thomas Mulcair, was his natural successor. But a surprise potential rival soon emerged from within Layton’s inner circle.

The day after his death, Canadian Press reported that party president Brian Topp was being encouraged by influential New Democrats to run for the leadership.

The CP story noted that, like Mulcair, Topp is a fluently bilingual native of Quebec who played a key role in the NDP’s rise to official-Opposition status in the federal election last May 2.

Unlike Mulcair, who joined the party only four years ago, Topp was described as a longtime New Democrat with “deep roots” in the party, especially in Ontario and the West, and in the labour movement.

And the story suggested that where Layton had been a conciliator, Mulcair was divisive, sometimes turning his well-known combativeness toward adversaries on members of his own party.

When Topp declined to take himself out of consideration, it looked as though the story had been planted to make influential New Democrats pause before committing themselves early to Mulcair in order to ingratiate themselves with the presumed next leader.

And the story was only the beginning of a whispering campaign against Mulcair from within his party.

The week after Layton’s death, an Ottawa-based newsweekly quoted an unnamed New Democrat “who was close to Mr. Layton and his top circle of advisers” saying that members of Layton’s inner circle “loathe” Mulcair.

What’s more, the story in the Hill Times hinted that Layton himself might have wanted to deny Mulcair the succession.

It said the suggestion in Layton’s letter that the leadership election be held “early in the New Year” was “a timetable that could dampen Mr. Mulcair’s hopes.”

The NDP chooses its leaders by a vote of its card-carrying members. Mulcair’s base is in Quebec, and even though 58 per cent of the New Democratic MPs are from this province, no more than five per cent of party members currently are.

The earlier the election, the less time Mulcair, a newcomer to the party, would have to win over existing members in the rest of the country and sign up new ones in Quebec.

Last week, Mulcair addressed the suggestion that Layton’s entourage, and perhaps Layton himself, didn’t want him to be leader. He spoke of his close association with Layton, and the confidence Layton had shown in him by appointing him House leader after the May 2 election.

But he said he would not decide whether to run for the leadership until after the party’s federal council sets the rules for the election on Friday.

If Mulcair does run, his fate could fall into the hands of the executor of Layton’s political will, his widow.

New Democrats showed great affection for Chow, and some urged her, an MP herself, to run.

She lacks the essential qualification of fluency in French, and has told CBC News she will not run. But her influence with New Democrats could make her the kingmaker.

And if she chose against Mulcair, it would be clear to New Democrats that the heir apparent was not the choice of the dying leader, either.

Such an ending would be Shakespearean, too.


It needs to be remembered that Jack Layton herded the NDP cats towards the political centre - thereby making them more and more acceptable to more and more Canadians. Simultaneously, he, himself, made his party into an acceptable alternative to Gilles Duceppe and the BQ for left wing nationalists in Québec and he was able to expand the breach Mulcair had made earlier.

Mulcair appears, to me, to be of a similar political centre as Lyton was - or appeared to be, but ever since Milcair arrived there have been rumours about his ambitions and Layton's distaste for the man and his ambitions - think Chrétien/Martin.

Whoever started this very public display of the Dippers' dirty laundry has done the party a disservice; sooner, rather than later, Canadians will see that the NDP is just a party, comme les autres, more interested in politics than in principles.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"

Offline GAP

  • Semper Fi
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 129,330
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,817
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2011, 07:58:37 »
And the CBC is keeping all it's options open, starting with a syrupy interview with Olivia.....she tearfully disclaimed any interest other than present grief, but the whole interview had that feeling of "more to come"....
REMEMBER SOME PEOPLE ARE ALIVE SIMPLY BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL TO SHOOT THEM

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 191,245
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,361
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2011, 10:03:27 »
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the National Post is Lawrence Martin's take on it:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/lawrence-martin/firebrand-mulcair-is-the-best-bet-to-take-on-harper/article2152485/
Quote
Firebrand Mulcair is the best bet to take on Harper

LAWRENCE MARTIN

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
Last updated Tuesday, Sep. 06, 2011

Early in a conversation with Thomas Mulcair the heavy lumber is rolled out.

You have the reputation of being “too tough to get along with, an abrasive *******,” he is told. “How do you respond to that?”

“I am a very determined guy,” replies the potential candidate for the leadership of the NDP. What has led to the harsh criticisms, he explains, is his pushing hard to get results. “My job was to build the party in Quebec. I think that actions speak louder than words. We delivered.”

Leaks to the media have suggested Mr. Mulcair didn’t get along with Jack Layton’s staff as well as many caucus members. The Layton entourage hasn’t exactly been running to the forefront to squelch the impression. They’re just anonymous sources, says Mr. Mulcair, and “those same anonymous sources are saying all sorts of things. I’ll let you come to your own determination about people like that.”

There are quite a few people “like that” around. They say that the MP from Outremont has a volcanic temper and an exploding ego. For good measure they add that he’s domineering and overly ambitious. They would like to undermine his leadership chances before the race has even begun.

But they might wish to cool their heels. Their take on the former Quebec cabinet minister may indeed have some basis in fact. The hothead Mulcair does seem to possess a brand of arrogance particular to Quebec elites that rubs many the wrong way.

But there’s that old saying in politics that nice guys finish last. It is doubly true if the adversary is one as tough as Stephen Harper. From this perspective, Thomas Mulcair’s weaknesses may in fact be his strengths. The last thing the NDP wants to put up against this Prime Minister is someone mild of manner, someone who can’t take a punch or throw a bunch of them.

Mr. Mulcair comes from an Irish-French background and a family of 10 kids. He learned his politics in the rough ward of Quebec City. One of the first lessons, he says, is that the Marquess of Queensberry rules do not apply. But he rejects the notion that he can’t build bridges. “After five years with Jack Layton you learn the fine art of looking for compromise. Constantly.”

On the NDP benches, Mr. Mulcair is the most articulate in the two official languages and the most forceful debater. He is near the top of the heap, as well, in terms of political experience, having already served in cabinet at the provincial level. Most importantly, he is the Quebec strongman. With 59 seats in that province, Quebec is now the NDP base and it is Mr. Mulcair who is indispensable to maintaining it. He is the one who, along with Jack Layton, built it.

By comparison, other potential leadership candidates don’t stack up. Olivia Chow doesn’t have the force of personality and doesn’t speak good French. Given Quebec’s importance, anyone not highly proficient in the language should not even apply for leadership consideration. Party president Brian Topp is bilingual and is shrewd, but has no active political experience, no Commons seat and is charisma-challenged. Paul Dewar is highly intelligent, a politician of integrity, but lacks brass and would be vulnerable to Mr. Harper in the same way as a Stéphane Dion.

Mr. Mulcair wants the leadership, but there is a good chance that he won’t run. The anti-Mulcair forces want a quick leadership convention, perhaps as early as January, to stop him. “If we precipitate this,” says Mr. Mulcair speaking of the convention timetable, “we would be hobbled. The process is going to be a determining factor in our decision.”

For the party to hobble the most highly qualified candidate would make no sense. The New Democrats are in the big leagues now and if they want to stay there they need a big leaguer – whether they like him or not.


Now, Lawrence Martin, as we all know, is quite Churchillian in that he would find something nice to say about the devil if he thought it might help defeat Hitler Harper (Martin gets the two confused). But in this case I agree with him. I have faith in the Liberals' ability to pick the wrong leader:


Denis Coderre

I also have confidence in Québec's ability to remain in a political cloud cookoo land and void its votes.

That means, I think, that only the NDP has even a remote chance of beatuing Harper - not likely in 2015 but, if they get an effective leader, maybe in 2019.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"

Offline ModlrMike

    : It's riding time again!

  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 124,404
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,630
    • Canadian Association of Physician Assistants
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2011, 11:23:51 »
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the National Post is Lawrence Martin's take on it:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/lawrence-martin/firebrand-mulcair-is-the-best-bet-to-take-on-harper/article2152485/

Now, Lawrence Martin, as we all know, is quite Churchillian in that he would find something nice to say about the devil if he thought it might help defeat Hitler Harper (Martin gets the two confused). But in this case I agree with him. I have faith in the Liberals' ability to pick the wrong leader:

Your assessment of Mr Martin is spot on.
Denis Coderre and Thomas Muclair could be the best things to happen to the Conservatives in a long time.


Quote
I also have confidence in Québec's ability to remain in a political cloud cookoo land and void its votes.


WRT Quebec, it will matter less and less as seat redistribution takes effect.


Quote
That means, I think, that only the NDP has even a remote chance of beating Harper - not likely in 2015 but, if they get an effective leader, maybe in 2019.

I don't know that Mr Harper will run in 2019, but neither do I think the NDP has a shot at forming the government by then. It will be many, many years before the NDP is ready for prime-time.
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
If you're surrounded by clowns do you go for the juggler?
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. (H.L. Mencken 1919)
#37 | Rank: 273 | Cbt Exp: 20,640,154 | Msns: 2,650

Offline Rifleman62

    Retired.

  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 34,425
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,468
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2011, 12:00:34 »
After the Obama socialist dictator mess in the USA, who would vote NDP?

You could also add McDinky to that as a Lieliberal.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 12:19:32 by Rifleman62 »
Never Congratulate Yourself In Victory, Nor Blame Your Horses In Defeat - Old Cossack Expression

Offline Journeyman

  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 193,120
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,667
  • Frustration at idiocy ends more threads than logic
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2011, 12:12:51 »
After the Obama socialist dictator mess in the USA, who would vote NDP?
Most likely the same ones who believe that any problems Obama and the US economy face are completely the responsibility of the right-wing, obstructionist Congress....for the same blindly ideological reason they believe that everything wrong with this country is because of the evil right-wing Conservatives.

You imply that voters actually research and think through options before voting, rather than merely stumbling from cliche, to diatribe, to the discourse of "oh,....oh ya?!."

[/cynicism]
Far from an apprentice, but not yet a master.

"Je suis trop honnête pour être poli" ~Louis Scutenaire (1905-1987)

Offline GAP

  • Semper Fi
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 129,330
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,817
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2011, 12:19:22 »
oh,....oh ya?!
REMEMBER SOME PEOPLE ARE ALIVE SIMPLY BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL TO SHOOT THEM

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline RangerRay

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,140
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 807
  • Kloshe Nanitch
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2011, 12:27:15 »
After the Obama socialist dictator mess in the USA, who would vote NDP?

The common thing that I hear from most non-political people is that Obama is hobbled by cleaning up Dubya's mess.  They haven't tied the current problems in the US to the Obama Administration.
"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill

Offline recceguy

    A Usual Suspect.

  • "Look, I don't know if shooting penguins will help the environment or not. But I do know that the decision shouldn't be in the hands of people who just wanna kill for fun."
  • Directing Staff
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 65,825
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,432
  • doddering docent to the museum of misanthropy
    • Army.ca
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2011, 12:45:44 »
The common thing that I hear from most non-political people is that Obama is hobbled by cleaning up Dubya's mess.  They haven't tied the current problems in the US to the Obama Administration.

I'm Stateside quite often and I find quite the opposite. Bush hardly rates mention anymore. He's almost relegated to a footnote. Most don't perceive of him as having left a mess.

When politics, or just the general state of the country, state, city, housing, jobs, things in general, etc, gets mentioned, almost invariably the first words spoken are "That f***ing Obama".

His 'jesus' status has definitely worn off over there.
"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." 2007 winning entry, Texas A&M University - most appropriate definition of a contemporary term.

DISCLAIMER - my opinion may cause manginal irritation.

Offline RangerRay

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,140
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 807
  • Kloshe Nanitch
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2011, 13:05:43 »
I'm Stateside quite often and I find quite the opposite. Bush hardly rates mention anymore. He's almost relegated to a footnote. Most don't perceive of him as having left a mess.

When politics, or just the general state of the country, state, city, housing, jobs, things in general, etc, gets mentioned, almost invariably the first words spoken are "That f***ing Obama".

His 'jesus' status has definitely worn off over there.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I talked to non-political Canadians.  They still think it's all Dubya's fault, and that Obama walks on water and $%!ts daisies.  :facepalm:
"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill

Offline Rifleman62

    Retired.

  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 34,425
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,468
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #61 on: September 06, 2011, 14:46:26 »
Its the media stupid!

Some of the TV commentators even have dribbles down their legs ( let alone the corner of their mouths) at the mere thought of Obama. Some get regular invites to Dinners at the White House.

Last winter in Texas there were lots of bumper stickers consisting of a photo of Pres Bush with the caption: "Do You Miss Me Yet!"

Never Congratulate Yourself In Victory, Nor Blame Your Horses In Defeat - Old Cossack Expression

Offline Thucydides

  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 82,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,601
  • Freespeecher
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #62 on: September 06, 2011, 15:13:03 »
Sorry, I should have clarified that I talked to non-political Canadians.  They still think it's all Dubya's fault, and that Obama walks on water and $%!ts daisies.  :facepalm:

I'll keep that in mind in 2012 when I vote..... ;)

I'm sure people in Canada, Micronesia and Middle Earth may still believe that everything can be blamed on [insert name here], but from any practical perspective, the only thing that matters is what American voters believe.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline RangerRay

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,140
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 807
  • Kloshe Nanitch
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #63 on: September 06, 2011, 17:17:21 »
I'll keep that in mind in 2012 when I vote..... ;)

I'm sure people in Canada, Micronesia and Middle Earth may still believe that everything can be blamed on [insert name here], but from any practical perspective, the only thing that matters is what American voters believe.

Unfortunately, most un-interested Canadians are not exposed to knowledge that many Americans are exposed to, so feel that Obama's NDP-lite policies are not to blame for their current situation.  They still believe what the Canadian MSM tells them, that it was rampant un-regulated capitalism that caused the crash, and their inability to climb out of the Obama-hole.
"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill

Offline E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 191,245
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,361
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2011, 07:11:14 »
And Jean Chrétien enters the lists, in this article, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/liberal-ndp-merger-could-come-very-quickly-chrtien-predicts/article2155542/
Quote
Liberal-NDP merger could 'come very quickly,’ Chrétien predicts

BILL CURRY
Ottawa— Globe and Mail Update

Posted on Tuesday, September 6, 2011

Former prime minister Jean Chrétien is fanning the flames of merger talk, predicting a union of the Liberals and NDP could happen just as suddenly as Stephen Harper’s successful bid to form a new Conservative Party in 2003.

Mr. Chrétien, 77, suggests protests from politicians currently denouncing the idea should be taken with a grain of salt, pointing to the example of Peter MacKay. As the last leader of the Progressive Conservative party, Mr. MacKay rejected the idea of a unite-the-right merger just months before he ultimately approved one.

“It will be done one day. And it will come very quickly or not happen,” Mr. Chrétien said Tuesday in an interview with CBC’s Power and Politics. “Look at the way that Harper did that. Harper had MacKay there, [who] made a solemn promise in writing that never he would talk merger with the Reform. He’s now the Minister of Defence. Things happen and they happen sometimes at moments unexpected.”

Mr. Chrétien was referencing the scribbled letter Mr. MacKay offered behind closed doors at a PC convention in the spring of 2003 to win the support of rival leadership candidate David Orchard. The deal was described as a “gentlemen’s agreement” not to merge the two parties. It was attacked at the time by leading Canadian Alliance members such as Jason Kenney as a “deal with the devil” and Mr. Harper quickly urged the new PC leader to shelve the pledge, saying “Peter MacKay made a mistake with the Orchard deal.”

Mr. Chrétien, who was prime minister from 1993 to 2003, also drew on his own party’s history to show that Liberals and New Democrats aren’t all that different.

“You have to keep in mind that it’s not [new],” he said, before recalling a 1956 quote from then-Liberal prime minister Louis St. Laurent.

“Talking about the NDP, who were the CCF in those days, [St. Laurent said:] ‘They are Liberals in a hurry.’ ... It’s a long time. Almost 56 years ago. And now the financing of the political parties, it’s not the same. They [the NDP] are not financed by the unions any more. It was a problem in my book. I don’t like any political party representing only one group in society. We’re there to govern for everybody in society,” he said.

New financing rules limiting union and corporate donations – brought in by Mr. Chrétien near the end of his time as prime minister – also put a major dent in the amount of money available to the Liberal Party, which was heavily dependent on corporate donations. In power, Mr. Harper’s Conservatives eliminated union and corporate donations entirely and are also phasing out taxpayer subsidies, which Mr. Chrétien’s government introduced as a partial replacement for corporate and union funds.

Meanwhile, deputy NDP leader Libby Davies moved Tuesday to put a lid on all the merger talk, advising her colleagues that such discussions don’t fit with what late party leader Jack Layton was advocating.

“Talking mergers (as they do in the corporate world) is not a way to realize this vision – and is not something I'm in favour of,” she wrote for the website rabble.ca.

Pushing for a merger is nothing new for Mr. Chrétien. He caused a stir during the last Parliament with behind the scenes talks with NDP veterans exploring the possibility of a merger.

“If they had done it,” Mr. Chrétien said, “a lot of people think, and I think too, they would have been the government today.”


While I would be loathe to question 'tit Jean's political judgement, and while I note that he has talked out of both sides of his mouth (comme d'habitude) by saying "it will come very quickly or"  [it will] "not happen" [at all], I do dispute his assertion that a merger would have changed the results of the last election. My take is that Canadians will accept a merger IF it is done well before and election - as a matter of principle (such as those ever exist in Canadian politics), but they would have punished such a merged party if they concluded the merger was just to win the forthcoming election.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"

Offline GAP

  • Semper Fi
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 129,330
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,817
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2011, 08:28:05 »
They had better frame their ideology pretty quickly then, if they do merge....honestly, I have difficulty reconciling the two together and coming up with a logical mandate.....other than getting elected....
REMEMBER SOME PEOPLE ARE ALIVE SIMPLY BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL TO SHOOT THEM

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 191,245
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,361
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2011, 08:41:36 »
IF they merge we will, in my opinion, end up with three new parties:

Left wing rump of the NDP - cannot abide Liberals  ---  New Merged Party - more centrist than left  ---  Right wing rump of the Liberals - cannot abide Dippers

Eventually the Left wing rump will grow and prosper, so will the New Merged Party, but they will continue to split the "left," to the Conservatives' advantage; the  Right wing rump will join the real Conservatives, leaving three 'national' parties, as we have now, plus the Greens plus, in my guesstimation two Québec nationalist parties.

Bring it on!
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"

Offline Thucydides

  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 82,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,601
  • Freespeecher
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2011, 10:36:53 »
I am reading 4 parties in the future:

CPC
Socialist Alliance Party (Liberal-NDP Merger)
Greens (too far removed from the mainstream to incorporate or be incorporated into the other parties: the "new" NDP for this era)
Quebec Nationalist Party (limited and declining value nationally, but a never ending protest vote from Quebec. Tactically aligned with the Socialist Alliance Party)

Now the Socialist Alliance Party and Quebec Nationalist Party might not have these names, but for now this will act as a useful marker for discussion.

Incidentally, there are at least 19 registered parties Federally, although I think they most are fighting over @ 2%-5% of the electorate. This might become significant is any form of PR voting is enacted in the future.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline RangerRay

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,140
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 807
  • Kloshe Nanitch
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2011, 11:03:41 »
Further to what I was talking about earlier, here is something from today's Globe and Mail that reflect Canadians' attitudes to Obama.  This backs up what I'm hearing from non-political Canadians, even ones who voted Conservative.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/america-as-a-trading-partner-yes-economic-model-no/article2155332/

Quote
Canadians do not blame Barack Obama for his country’s problems. In the Globe/Nanos survey, an overwhelming majority of Canadians believe he is doing the “best job possible.” Inferentially, they’re saying the U.S. political system is a mess – which, of course, it is, although he isn’t responsible.
  :facepalm:

If Canadians do not equate Obama's policies to economic meltdown, they will not equate Liberal/NDP policies to meltdown.
"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill

Offline E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 191,245
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,361
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2011, 16:27:25 »
And the knives are out in the Liberal Party of Canada too, according to this article, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/seeking-liberal-presidency-sheila-copps-vows-to-fight-merger/article2156921/
Quote
Seeking Liberal presidency, Sheila Copps vows to fight merger

Montreal— The Canadian Press

Published Wednesday, Sep. 07, 2011

Former cabinet minister Sheila Copps has announced she will run for the presidency of the federal Liberals and fight any plans to have the party merge with the NDP.

Ms. Copps said she disagrees with former prime minister Jean Chrétien’s prediction that it is only a matter of time before the Liberals and the NDP become one entity.

She believes the party should instead unite internally so it can return to being a strong centrist option.

“I think we need to do some internal merging. ... So I don't agree with my colleague and friend Mr. Chrétien that the only solution is merging the Liberals and the NDP,” she told The Canadian Press on Wednesday.

Ms. Copps, 58, said it is important that the Liberals resurrect themselves to help counter Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservatives.

“If [Mr. Harper] wants to get rid of the Liberal Party, it is not to help the NDP,” Ms. Copps said.

“He wants to get rid of the Liberal Party because he feels if there is a vacated centre and the country goes into two polar opposites, there's a good chance he could stay in power in perpetuity.”

As for why she wants to become Liberal Party president, Ms. Copps said: “I've got the seven-year itch and it needs scratching.”

And the former deputy prime minister appears to be under no illusions about the challenges she would face, saying she would like to bring in “money, memberships and morale – and not necessarily in that order.”

Ms. Copps said she wants to modernize the party, make it more accessible and have one million voters cast ballots in the leadership race.

“I'm hoping there are enough people across the country who have been out who believe in Liberal values and keeping the country's values at the centre.”

One-time diplomat Ron Hartling and recently defeated MP Alexandra Mendes have already declared their intentions to run for the presidency as well.

The party's next president will be decided at a convention in Ottawa in January.


I think, I actually hope that both the LPC and NDP will have principled discussions about a merger: pro and con. It will help both parties, and all Canadians, to examine and profess their core values and to expose their political DNA to public scrutiny.

I'm guessing that both parties will, over the next few years, lose members, maybe even including sitting MPs, to the others.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"

Offline ModlrMike

    : It's riding time again!

  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 124,404
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,630
    • Canadian Association of Physician Assistants
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2011, 16:30:30 »

I think, I actually hope that both the LPC and NDP will have principled discussions about a merger: pro and con. It will help both parties, and all Canadians, to examine and profess their core values and to expose their political DNA to public scrutiny.


Except that thus far neither party has been particularly pubic with their political DNA. What makes you think they'll involve the public in any navel gazing exercise?
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
If you're surrounded by clowns do you go for the juggler?
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. (H.L. Mencken 1919)
#37 | Rank: 273 | Cbt Exp: 20,640,154 | Msns: 2,650

Offline E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 191,245
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,361
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2011, 16:34:46 »
But NDP insider Jamey Heath makes a cogent case for the merge in another article in the Globe and Mail. He notes, for starters, that the "interim Liberal leader is a former New Democrat" and a "leading contender for the NDP leadership is a former Liberal," which is both true and too cute by half. Heath disputes the "different species" argument proposed by many opponents and neutral observers. He notes than, in a merged party, "John Manley, say, probably wouldn’t enjoy joint caucus meetings. But Sheila Copps probably would," and he goes on to suggest that is "Mr. Manley or other rightward Liberals find co-operation unpalatable, they should do us all a favour and join the Tories to rebuild their left flank."

It should be an interesting debate.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"

Offline E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 191,245
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,361
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2011, 16:36:34 »
Except that thus far neither party has been particularly pubic with their political DNA. What makes you think they'll involve the public in any navel gazing exercise?


I doubt either party will be able, even with a generally lazy compliant media, to keep it all under wraps. The advocates will have to conscript the media to reach their own members and supporters.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"

Offline Brad Sallows

  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 13,995
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,556
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2011, 22:05:32 »
I'll repeat my earlier guess: the leftward portion of the Liberals will join the NDP and the resulting party will drift left, the rightward portion of the Liberals will join the CPC and it will gravitate to the centre, and eventually the rightmost portion of the CPC will break off over disagreement with the centrists.  We will be back to 3 parties: one firmly left, one left centre/centre, and one centre/centre right.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Arnold: "I thought the sasquatch couldn't swim."
Ranger: "Dare to dream, Arnold.  Dare to dream."

Offline E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 191,245
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,361
Re: Election 2015
« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2011, 06:52:01 »
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the National Post, is some good stuff and a persistent LIE that the Liberals and NDP continue to tell:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/merger+agenda+Topp+says/5367840/story.html
Quote
NDP merger not on the agenda, Topp says

Tobi Cohen, Postmedia News

Sept. 8, 2011

OTTAWA . The backroom New Democrat behind the 2008 coalition wouldn't hesitate to strike another deal with the Liberals should the Conservatives win a minority in the next election.

In an interview, NDP president Brian Topp said on Wednesday that a merger of the two parties is not on the agenda but that a coalition remains a "perfectly legitimate" option.

"If Canadians elect a minority Parliament, in which there's a progressive and centrist majority that finds a way to work together, then we should [work together] because that's what the majority of the public have elected," he said. "We don't have to become Liberals to win."

His comments come after the Canadian Autoworkers union expressed support for an NDP-Liberal merger and MP Pat Martin proclaimed he would run for the leadership if no other candidates promoted the idea. Although former prime minister Jean Chrétien has been pushing for it among Liberals, current interim Liberal leader Bob Rae has said the merger option is not on the table.

While nobody has officially entered the race to replace Jack Layton, who lost his battle with cancer last month - the rules of which will be set by the party's federal council on Friday - Mr. Topp is among the supposed frontrunners contemplating a bid.

He's also the author of How We Almost Gave the Tories the Boot: The Inside Story Behind the Coalition, which offers an in-depth look at the 2008 partnership from his standpoint as one of the lead negotiators. The coalition ultimately fell apart when Parliament was prorogued.

Mr. Topp suggested the idea of working together with other parties actually resonated with voters who chose the NDP in unprecedented numbers, especially in Quebec, where a record 59 New Democrats were elected.

"A key element of our success, in my opinion, is the way we played our cards in the last Parliament," he said.

"It was a mixed success in public opinion in English Canada, but the idea of replacing the Harper government with a progressive coalition was very popular in Quebec and it caused Quebecers to think about politics in new ways.... It caused them to get out of the idea that they needed to vote defensively in federal politics."

Mr. Topp, who will announce in short order whether he intends to enter the race, remains a relative unknown among Canadian voters who, pundits suggest, elected the party based largely on its popular and charismatic late leader.

That said, the fluently bilingual, Quebec-born Topp is well-known in party circles, having served as national campaign director in the 2006 and 2008 elections. He co-ordinated the campaign war room in 1997 and 2004 and was deputy chief of staff to Saskatchewan premier Roy Romanow in the 1990s. In the last campaign, Mr. Topp co-chaired the committee responsible for the party's platform and he co-ordinated the leaders debate.

While deputy leader Thomas Mulcair, another likely top contender for the leadership, is viewed as both the party's face and key promoter in Quebec, Mr. Topp has been helping mobilize the NDP in the province since he began working for the party in Montreal in the mid1980s, under Ed Broadbent.

In fact, he organized the campaign that got Phil Edmonston elected in Chambly in a 1990 byelection - the NDP's first-ever seat in Quebec.

"I haven't run as an MP and I'm not an MP, but I have attended more NDP caucus meetings than any of the likely leadership candidates," Mr. Topp said, adding many of his suggestions during those meetings were adopted.

"I haven't stood up in Parliament and read a question, but I've written many of them and I've also spent seven years co-ordinating the responses of a government to Question Period, so I'm quite familiar with parliamentary work." Mr. Topp said the party's next leader must focus on "bulking up" the party to ensure it wins a majority of seats in the next election and building a plan for its first mandate.


The "good stuff" is that, of course, "a coalition remains a "perfectly legitimate" option." That's 100% true.

The lie then follows, in Topp's own words: "If Canadians elect a minority Parliament, in which there's a progressive and centrist majority that finds a way to work together, then we should [work together] because that's what the majority of the public have elected ..."

That's arrant nonsense and it is a lie, but it is a lie that the anti-Harper folks love to tell. The "majority of the public" did not, in e.g. 2006 or 2008, elect a "progressive and centrist majority." A plurality of the public voted for the Conservatives, smaller groups voted for an array of parties other than the Conservatives but none, not one single Canadian voted for a "progressive and centrist majority" or anything else, except for n MPs from four different parties (plus an Independent or two).

Now Brian Topp, like most "progressive and centrist" commentators, is a smart guy; because he's a smart guy he must know that what he's spouting is incorrect. People who, knowingly, spout incorrect information are liars ... Topp is in 'good,' ""progressive and centrist" company, many of them lie with practiced ease.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concernign Government, (1698)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"