Author Topic: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF  (Read 7082 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JB 11 11

  • Member
  • ****
  • 3,565
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 108
I am putting this here because this area gets quite a bit of traffic from soon-to-be members and/or people looking to become members and thought a thread on this topic might save some people from some unnecessary flaming ;) Mods, feel free to move it where it should be, if not here.

I've been on here for a bit while I wait (P.A.T.I.E.N.T.L.Y.) for my chosen trades to open up, but in that time I have seen countless posts where the grammar has been, quite simply put, frightening! Now let me state for the record that I AM NOT at all a grammar wizard and in fact I did poorly in grammar while I was in school. My spelling can be quite atrocious, but by and large, I make an effort to use such tools at my disposal as "Spell Check" and some ancient pieces of grammatically priceless literature called "Thesaurus" and "Dictionary", to correct any short comings I may have in the grammar department.

All joking aside though, as some of the staff on here (not to mention current members) have alluded to, you will need to do a bit of writing in BMQ and a lot more writing in BMOQ if you are aspiring to join the CF. And although I have not gone through BMQ, I can assure you that the flaming you get from the staff on here is like a hug from a teddy bear compared to what you'll get from your staff if you write like that on course.

So, ok... maybe I am being a bit harsh. Granted you might write on the internet one way and be a regular Oscar Wilde when writing for real. And granted in some light hearted threads, the internet standard of piss poor linguistics (My term for it) is fine, and in some rare instances, perhaps even saves one time. However, this brings me to my next point.... laziness.
This forum is not a chat room, ICQ or MSN messenger. You do not need to use social abbreviations and acronyms to get your point across, and in fact , using them on this forum is about as inappropriate as wearing nothing more than a g-string and bow-tie to meet the in-laws (Sorry...it was the first thing that came to mind).

At no time does this hold more true than when one is asking questions of the members and/or the staff.
Personally, nothing strikes fear into me more than reading a post from someone who wants to be an officer, someone who might very well hold MY life in their hands someday, and writes there queries in the manner: "ne 1 no how mny pshups i need to do?".

Take your time to write properly. If you don't have a clue how to, or are like I was and suck real bad at it, then take the time to at least use the spell check. The creators of this site have kindly included one into the reply window tools (Its right there beside the "Post" and "Preview" buttons) Or, if you find yourself wanting to improve yourself, then reading a lot will also help. It did for me.
Writing well will get you a lot farther than trying to be witty and cool with people. It speaks to your maturity and gives people the idea that you take yourself seriously. And those are the type of people the CF is looking for.... or at the very least, the type of people I hope to someday serve with.

Food for thought people.

As Always My  :2c:
JB
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 10:12:39 by JB 11 11 »

Offline GAP

  • Semper Fi
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 129,330
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,817
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2011, 10:04:07 »
Thanks for that!!
REMEMBER SOME PEOPLE ARE ALIVE SIMPLY BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL TO SHOOT THEM

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline milnews.ca

  • Directing Staff
  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *
  • 173,135
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,690
  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2011, 10:04:31 »
Well put - PM inbound.

Worth a sticky maybe?
Like what you see/read here at Milnet.ca?  Subscribe, and get great swag while helping keep the lights on!

"Healthy discontent is the prelude to progress."  Mahatma Gandhi

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline frank1515

  • Member
  • ****
  • 15,833
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 124
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2011, 10:06:24 »
As stated above, well put, coherent, and to the point.
*I have no military experience and I don't claim to have any. Anything posted by Frank1515 is from personal experiences with the recruiting process or my personal opinion. Please keep this in mind while reading my posts*

Offline JB 11 11

  • Member
  • ****
  • 3,565
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 108
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2011, 10:20:45 »
No worries. Hopefully some will take it seriously, though I suspect most will insist on learning the hard way ::)

Offline missing1

    .

  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Member
  • *
  • 3,160
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 102
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2011, 10:33:13 »
Not to be picky but...

"and writes there queries in the manner:"

Just an observation from someone that didn't take BMQ or University grammar.

Go ahead nail me.
The pen may be stronger than the sword...
but I'd rather have a sword in a dark alley
- Andrew Warnick

 Those who live by the sword get shot by those who do not

I always take life with a grain of salt... plus a slice of lemon... and a shot of tequila.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

  • Directing Staff
  • Milnet.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 42,437
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,835
  • Quietly assimilating the army to the navy way
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2011, 10:50:06 »
Well put - PM inbound.

Worth a sticky maybe?

Concur

milnet.ca staff
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Quote fr Recceguy: "Btw I am awesome. It hardly sucks to be me
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Proud member of MARCOM...erm Canadian Navy...now RCN.

Offline JB 11 11

  • Member
  • ****
  • 3,565
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 108
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2011, 12:50:54 »
Not to be picky but...

"and writes there queries in the manner:"

Just an observation from someone that didn't take BMQ or University grammar.

Go ahead nail me.

Fair enough. perhaps it is not the Queen's English, but like I said... Im not amazing at grammar either. :-*

Offline Rheostatic

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 242,991
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 344
  • Don't shoot the messenger
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2011, 15:49:50 »
Here you go, grammar for those of us with short attention spans: http://theoatmeal.com/tag/grammar

Offline PeterBoy

  • Guest
  • *
  • 110
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2011, 17:36:42 »
  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

Offline CDN Aviator

  • Milnet.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 145,785
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,802
  • BD3D Op
    • Association of Old Crows
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2011, 17:48:35 »
  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

Basing this on your extensive experience ?
"Ahh..... F**k it....weapon away !!"

"The only difference between peace and war is where we place our bombs" - General Curtis E. LeMay

Offline Occam

    needs a vacation.

  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 55,855
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,946
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2011, 18:41:05 »
  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

I'd say you're 100% wrong.

Every trade in the CF will encounter administration at some point or another.  Some may be heavier on it at some ranks than others, and some trades may be heavier on it than others.  In the end, you cannot function if you cannot communicate clearly in writing and speech in the CF.

Offline cavalryman

  • You can't put a pricetag on patriotism
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • 4,790
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 98
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2011, 19:22:11 »
  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military


You'd be surprised at the the extent proper  grammar influences the credibility of your writing, notwithstanding the pertinence of your ideas, and you will be writing.  And if it applies to writing, it applies to the spoken word as well, but even more so.   ;D

Offline 1984

  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Member
  • *
  • 4,399
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 238
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2011, 20:40:39 »
  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

Tell that to my favourite red pen.

Offline medicineman

  • Well stuck into my new job and thoroughly enjoying it.
  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 66,890
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,996
  • In Arduis Fidelis
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2011, 21:59:39 »

You'd be surprised at the the extent proper  grammar influences the credibility of your writing, notwithstanding the pertinence of your ideas, and you will be writing.  And if it applies to writing, it applies to the spoken word as well, but even more so.   ;D

If you were working for me it would...just ask some of the youngsters who've received memos back covered in red.

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline RDJP

    is off somewhere, looking for his cane.

  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Member
  • *
  • 6,930
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 245
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2011, 23:13:14 »
  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

Neither will being on punctuality, preparedness, and proper dress.   ::) ::) ::)

Offline Teeps74

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 2,627
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 404
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2011, 23:56:29 »
  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

18 years infantry, my ability to communicate in written media is tested every single day. It starts when you are in BMQ, and transitions to more importance post PLQ (because now you are writing for subordinates). By the time you are doing your DP4/ALP, your subordinates depend on your ability to engage in prose to get them the things they need (a well intentioned but poorly written PDR will not do your subordinates any favours).

So, if you are happy with being a Cpl, who never submits any memos (guess you care not for any type of leave outside of normal block leave), I guess one could claim that written communication is not important. For the rest of us, who want courses, want to take part in special events, who are required to submit the proper staff work to train our troops... Written communication is a key skill.
"... to fight and conquer in all your battles
    is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists
    in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
#117 | Rank: 68 | Cbt Exp: 337,429 | Msns: 735

Offline PeterBoy

  • Guest
  • *
  • 110
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2011, 08:23:03 »
The only writing you do on BMQ is your autobiography. Memos and orders are basically written in point form. I spell and use grammar like an ESL student and still topped my PLQ. I agree with some of the comments on this thread and didn't mean to spark a debate on this topic but lets get serious here, there is no English test to become an instructor at St Jean, or get promoted. And if there was it would be multiple choice and you would get three chances at it. All I'm saying is if you skipped most to all of your high school English classes or just slept through them your not gonna get a "FLAMING" or be a cpl for life. I think the attitude portrayed in the first post may jeopardize your success in the CF more then the guy who used "to" instead of "too" or the guy who uses "lol" or "ttyl" on an internet forum.

Offline medicineman

  • Well stuck into my new job and thoroughly enjoying it.
  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 66,890
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,996
  • In Arduis Fidelis
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2011, 09:42:37 »
If you don't think you don't have to do writing as a Cpl, you're living a pretty sheltered life.  I not only had to submit memos fairly frequently, but also got handed a couple of service papers to write AS A CPL, and write letters and assessments on juniors AS A CPL.  If that stuff looked like crap, I got it back and started again.  You might not think that using the proper version on "their" vs "there" vs "they're" isn't a big deal, but those words actually have completely different meanings.  No different than one of my medics messing up "ileum" and "ilium" - two similar words that are completely different parts of the body.  It's one of those "pay attention to the details" things you likely heard so much about in BMQ, PLQ and every other course you've been on.  It's also indicative of a lack of caring on the part of the person submitting the work, and therefore a lack of professionalism, if they can't be bothered to ensure something as "mundane" as proper grammar or spelling in their written communications.  You're not going to have fun writing PER's if that's your attitude - my guess is they'll all be coming back for re-writes.

 :2c:

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline Occam

    needs a vacation.

  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 55,855
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,946
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2011, 09:46:14 »
The only writing you do on BMQ is your autobiography. Memos and orders are basically written in point form. I spell and use grammar like an ESL student and still topped my PLQ. I agree with some of the comments on this thread and didn't mean to spark a debate on this topic but lets get serious here, there is no English test to become an instructor at St Jean, or get promoted. And if there was it would be multiple choice and you would get three chances at it. All I'm saying is if you skipped most to all of your high school English classes or just slept through them your not gonna get a "FLAMING" or be a cpl for life. I think the attitude portrayed in the first post may jeopardize your success in the CF more then the guy who used "to" instead of "too" or the guy who uses "lol" or "ttyl" on an internet forum.

No problem - continue on believing your experience to date is reflective of most of the CF, and come back and let us know how you made out in 20 years or so.

Offline Nerf herder

  • Directing Staff
  • Milnet.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 8,623
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,419
  • The usual suspect.
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2011, 09:50:11 »
The only writing you do on BMQ is your autobiography. Memos and orders are basically written in point form. I spell and use grammar like an ESL student and still topped my PLQ. I agree with some of the comments on this thread and didn't mean to spark a debate on this topic but lets get serious here, there is no English test to become an instructor at St Jean, or get promoted. And if there was it would be multiple choice and you would get three chances at it. All I'm saying is if you skipped most to all of your high school English classes or just slept through them your not gonna get a "FLAMING" or be a cpl for life. I think the attitude portrayed in the first post may jeopardize your success in the CF more then the guy who used "to" instead of "too" or the guy who uses "lol" or "ttyl" on an internet forum.

You may want to re-read some of the comments above your last post.

After a certain level, even as an NCO, you are expected to write in a coherent manner within the guides of military writing. So much so that there is a manual on it. Failing to do so as you progress may not only hurt your chances of being promoted, but also hurt your subordinates when it comes to Merit Listing for promotion due to a shitty written PER.

You owe them at least your best efforts and to consistently strive to improve.

As for the grammar skills not being taught coming out of PLQ, it's rather evident by the amount of red ink I go through on a regular basis when reviewing a memo a PLQ qualified Cpl or MCpl submits. The standards are deplorable.

There is nothing worse than trying to read a memo and not actually understanding what the soldier requires because of either lack of clarity, basic spelling or punctuation. I've read some that appeared to have been written by a 5th grader but was actually written by a man in his early 20's.

But then again, you know best dude. If you are PLQ qualified, way to inspire troops.      ::)



Back to the OP's question: It's important. Just not so much at the BMQ level. Strive to always improve because it will affect you sooner or later. Either in the military or in the private sector.

Regards
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.--Ben Franklin

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
    -Norman Schwartzkopf

Offline medicineman

  • Well stuck into my new job and thoroughly enjoying it.
  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 66,890
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,996
  • In Arduis Fidelis
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2011, 09:56:40 »

As for the grammar skills not being taught coming out of PLQ, it's rather evident by the amount of red ink I go through on a regular basis when reviewing a memo a PLQ qualified Cpl or MCpl submits. The standards are deplorable.


Funny you mention that- I did one of the last JLC's run by the Air Force in Borden...I know laugh your hole off...however, they actually brought in English and French teachers from Georgian College to refresh everyone on basic grammar in their official languages for a week, so that when we started our Military Writing classes, the only things we were getting picked up on were formatting issues.  Sounds like a good idea fairy managed to cut some costs and training days...again.

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline PeterBoy

  • Guest
  • *
  • 110
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2011, 10:47:43 »
You guys are missing my point. I should have explained myself better on my first post. I agree with a lot of what people are saying here, but i also disagree. Not being able to use annual other than block leave........ c'mon. I'm not talking about an illiterate soldier being successful in the CF. I'm talking about having a basic understanding of written and spoken English is all that is necessary. And for the comment as come talk to us in 20 years, I made mcpl in 4.5 years so I think what I was doing worked alright. I appreciate the comments and rebuttals. Never stop improving yourself however you see fit, and nothing that can be written on paper can compare to actions and a positive attitude. End to my argument.  :nod: :salute:

Offline CDN Aviator

  • Milnet.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 145,785
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,802
  • BD3D Op
    • Association of Old Crows
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2011, 10:57:49 »


Quote
so I think what I was doing worked alright.

As you get further up in rank, what you have been doing will simply not be good enough. The expectations only get higher.

Quote
and nothing that can be written on paper can compare to actions and a positive attitude.

If only it were so.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 10:59:47 by Mike Bobbitt »
"Ahh..... F**k it....weapon away !!"

"The only difference between peace and war is where we place our bombs" - General Curtis E. LeMay

Offline Teeps74

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 2,627
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 404
Re: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2011, 11:23:46 »
Never stop improving yourself however you see fit, and nothing that can be written on paper can compare to actions and a positive attitude. End to my argument.  :nod: :salute:

Actions and attitude always need some sort of reporting to produce a positive outcome. It is all in the follow through. So, as keen and capable a soldier is, if no one is there to write the PDR, PER, letter of assessment or course report, actions and attitude fall short of moving a soldier forward... Then we start into redress of grievance.

Like it or lump it, the CF is now a paper driven beast. Nothing happens without the appropriate staff work.
"... to fight and conquer in all your battles
    is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists
    in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
#117 | Rank: 68 | Cbt Exp: 337,429 | Msns: 735