Topic: The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF

[JB 11 11]

I am putting this here because this area gets quite a bit of traffic from soon-to-be members and/or people looking to become members and thought a thread on this topic might save some people from some unnecessary flaming Mods, feel free to move it where it should be, if not here.

I've been on here for a bit while I wait (P.A.T.I.E.N.T.L.Y.) for my chosen trades to open up, but in that time I have seen countless posts where the grammar has been, quite simply put, frightening! Now let me state for the record that I AM NOT at all a grammar wizard and in fact I did poorly in grammar while I was in school. My spelling can be quite atrocious, but by and large, I make an effort to use such tools at my disposal as "Spell Check" and some ancient pieces of grammatically priceless literature called "Thesaurus" and "Dictionary", to correct any short comings I may have in the grammar department.

All joking aside though, as some of the staff on here (not to mention current members) have alluded to, you will need to do a bit of writing in BMQ and a lot more writing in BMOQ if you are aspiring to join the CF. And although I have not gone through BMQ, I can assure you that the flaming you get from the staff on here is like a hug from a teddy bear compared to what you'll get from your staff if you write like that on course.

So, ok... maybe I am being a bit harsh. Granted you might write on the internet one way and be a regular Oscar Wilde when writing for real. And granted in some light hearted threads, the internet standard of piss poor linguistics (My term for it) is fine, and in some rare instances, perhaps even saves one time. However, this brings me to my next point.... laziness.
This forum is not a chat room, ICQ or MSN messenger. You do not need to use social abbreviations and acronyms to get your point across, and in fact , using them on this forum is about as inappropriate as wearing nothing more than a g-string and bow-tie to meet the in-laws (Sorry...it was the first thing that came to mind).

At no time does this hold more true than when one is asking questions of the members and/or the staff.
Personally, nothing strikes fear into me more than reading a post from someone who wants to be an officer, someone who might very well hold MY life in their hands someday, and writes there queries in the manner: "ne 1 no how mny pshups i need to do?".

Take your time to write properly. If you don't have a clue how to, or are like I was and suck real bad at it, then take the time to at least use the spell check. The creators of this site have kindly included one into the reply window tools (Its right there beside the "Post" and "Preview" buttons) Or, if you find yourself wanting to improve yourself, then reading a lot will also help. It did for me.
Writing well will get you a lot farther than trying to be witty and cool with people. It speaks to your maturity and gives people the idea that you take yourself seriously. And those are the type of people the CF is looking for.... or at the very least, the type of people I hope to someday serve with.

Food for thought people.

As Always My 
JB

[GAP]

Thanks for that!!

[milnews.ca]

Well put - PM inbound.

Worth a sticky maybe?

[frank1515]

As stated above, well put, coherent, and to the point.

[JB 11 11]

No worries. Hopefully some will take it seriously, though I suspect most will insist on learning the hard way

[missing1]

Not to be picky but...

"and writes there queries in the manner:"

Just an observation from someone that didn't take BMQ or University grammar.

Go ahead nail me.

[Ex-Dragoon]

Well put - PM inbound.

Worth a sticky maybe?

Concur

milnet.ca staff

[JB 11 11]

Not to be picky but...

"and writes there queries in the manner:"

Just an observation from someone that didn't take BMQ or University grammar.

Go ahead nail me.

Fair enough. perhaps it is not the Queen's English, but like I said... Im not amazing at grammar either.

[Rheostatic]

Here you go, grammar for those of us with short attention spans: http://theoatmeal.com/tag/grammar

[PeterBoy]

  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

[CDN Aviator]

  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

Basing this on your extensive experience ?

[Occam]

  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

I'd say you're 100% wrong.

Every trade in the CF will encounter administration at some point or another.  Some may be heavier on it at some ranks than others, and some trades may be heavier on it than others.  In the end, you cannot function if you cannot communicate clearly in writing and speech in the CF.

[cavalryman]

  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

You'd be surprised at the the extent proper  grammar influences the credibility of your writing, notwithstanding the pertinence of your ideas, and you will be writing.  And if it applies to writing, it applies to the spoken word as well, but even more so.   

[1984]

  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

Tell that to my favourite red pen.

[medicineman]

You'd be surprised at the the extent proper  grammar influences the credibility of your writing, notwithstanding the pertinence of your ideas, and you will be writing.  And if it applies to writing, it applies to the spoken word as well, but even more so.   

If you were working for me it would...just ask some of the youngsters who've received memos back covered in red.

MM

[RDJP]

  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

Neither will being on punctuality, preparedness, and proper dress.   

[Teeps74]

  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

18 years infantry, my ability to communicate in written media is tested every single day. It starts when you are in BMQ, and transitions to more importance post PLQ (because now you are writing for subordinates). By the time you are doing your DP4/ALP, your subordinates depend on your ability to engage in prose to get them the things they need (a well intentioned but poorly written PDR will not do your subordinates any favours).

So, if you are happy with being a Cpl, who never submits any memos (guess you care not for any type of leave outside of normal block leave), I guess one could claim that written communication is not important. For the rest of us, who want courses, want to take part in special events, who are required to submit the proper staff work to train our troops... Written communication is a key skill.

[PeterBoy]

The only writing you do on BMQ is your autobiography. Memos and orders are basically written in point form. I spell and use grammar like an ESL student and still topped my PLQ. I agree with some of the comments on this thread and didn't mean to spark a debate on this topic but lets get serious here, there is no English test to become an instructor at St Jean, or get promoted. And if there was it would be multiple choice and you would get three chances at it. All I'm saying is if you skipped most to all of your high school English classes or just slept through them your not gonna get a "FLAMING" or be a cpl for life. I think the attitude portrayed in the first post may jeopardize your success in the CF more then the guy who used "to" instead of "too" or the guy who uses "lol" or "ttyl" on an internet forum.

[medicineman]

If you don't think you don't have to do writing as a Cpl, you're living a pretty sheltered life.  I not only had to submit memos fairly frequently, but also got handed a couple of service papers to write AS A CPL, and write letters and assessments on juniors AS A CPL.  If that stuff looked like crap, I got it back and started again.  You might not think that using the proper version on "their" vs "there" vs "they're" isn't a big deal, but those words actually have completely different meanings.  No different than one of my medics messing up "ileum" and "ilium" - two similar words that are completely different parts of the body.  It's one of those "pay attention to the details" things you likely heard so much about in BMQ, PLQ and every other course you've been on.  It's also indicative of a lack of caring on the part of the person submitting the work, and therefore a lack of professionalism, if they can't be bothered to ensure something as "mundane" as proper grammar or spelling in their written communications.  You're not going to have fun writing PER's if that's your attitude - my guess is they'll all be coming back for re-writes.

 

MM

[Occam]

The only writing you do on BMQ is your autobiography. Memos and orders are basically written in point form. I spell and use grammar like an ESL student and still topped my PLQ. I agree with some of the comments on this thread and didn't mean to spark a debate on this topic but lets get serious here, there is no English test to become an instructor at St Jean, or get promoted. And if there was it would be multiple choice and you would get three chances at it. All I'm saying is if you skipped most to all of your high school English classes or just slept through them your not gonna get a "FLAMING" or be a cpl for life. I think the attitude portrayed in the first post may jeopardize your success in the CF more then the guy who used "to" instead of "too" or the guy who uses "lol" or "ttyl" on an internet forum.

No problem - continue on believing your experience to date is reflective of most of the CF, and come back and let us know how you made out in 20 years or so.

[Nerf herder]

The only writing you do on BMQ is your autobiography. Memos and orders are basically written in point form. I spell and use grammar like an ESL student and still topped my PLQ. I agree with some of the comments on this thread and didn't mean to spark a debate on this topic but lets get serious here, there is no English test to become an instructor at St Jean, or get promoted. And if there was it would be multiple choice and you would get three chances at it. All I'm saying is if you skipped most to all of your high school English classes or just slept through them your not gonna get a "FLAMING" or be a cpl for life. I think the attitude portrayed in the first post may jeopardize your success in the CF more then the guy who used "to" instead of "too" or the guy who uses "lol" or "ttyl" on an internet forum.

You may want to re-read some of the comments above your last post.

After a certain level, even as an NCO, you are expected to write in a coherent manner within the guides of military writing. So much so that there is a manual on it. Failing to do so as you progress may not only hurt your chances of being promoted, but also hurt your subordinates when it comes to Merit Listing for promotion due to a shitty written PER.

You owe them at least your best efforts and to consistently strive to improve.

As for the grammar skills not being taught coming out of PLQ, it's rather evident by the amount of red ink I go through on a regular basis when reviewing a memo a PLQ qualified Cpl or MCpl submits. The standards are deplorable.

There is nothing worse than trying to read a memo and not actually understanding what the soldier requires because of either lack of clarity, basic spelling or punctuation. I've read some that appeared to have been written by a 5th grader but was actually written by a man in his early 20's.

But then again, you know best dude. If you are PLQ qualified, way to inspire troops.     



Back to the OP's question: It's important. Just not so much at the BMQ level. Strive to always improve because it will affect you sooner or later. Either in the military or in the private sector.

Regards

[medicineman]

As for the grammar skills not being taught coming out of PLQ, it's rather evident by the amount of red ink I go through on a regular basis when reviewing a memo a PLQ qualified Cpl or MCpl submits. The standards are deplorable.

Funny you mention that- I did one of the last JLC's run by the Air Force in Borden...I know laugh your hole off...however, they actually brought in English and French teachers from Georgian College to refresh everyone on basic grammar in their official languages for a week, so that when we started our Military Writing classes, the only things we were getting picked up on were formatting issues.  Sounds like a good idea fairy managed to cut some costs and training days...again.

MM

[PeterBoy]

You guys are missing my point. I should have explained myself better on my first post. I agree with a lot of what people are saying here, but i also disagree. Not being able to use annual other than block leave........ c'mon. I'm not talking about an illiterate soldier being successful in the CF. I'm talking about having a basic understanding of written and spoken English is all that is necessary. And for the comment as come talk to us in 20 years, I made mcpl in 4.5 years so I think what I was doing worked alright. I appreciate the comments and rebuttals. Never stop improving yourself however you see fit, and nothing that can be written on paper can compare to actions and a positive attitude. End to my argument. 

[CDN Aviator]

so I think what I was doing worked alright.

As you get further up in rank, what you have been doing will simply not be good enough. The expectations only get higher.

and nothing that can be written on paper can compare to actions and a positive attitude.

If only it were so.

[Teeps74]

Never stop improving yourself however you see fit, and nothing that can be written on paper can compare to actions and a positive attitude. End to my argument. 

Actions and attitude always need some sort of reporting to produce a positive outcome. It is all in the follow through. So, as keen and capable a soldier is, if no one is there to write the PDR, PER, letter of assessment or course report, actions and attitude fall short of moving a soldier forward... Then we start into redress of grievance.

Like it or lump it, the CF is now a paper driven beast. Nothing happens without the appropriate staff work.

[Blackadder1916]

You guys are missing my point. I should have explained myself better on my first post. I agree with a lot of what people are saying here, but i also disagree. . . . .   I'm talking about having a basic understanding of written and spoken English is all that is necessary. . . .

Let's refer to your first post to see what was missing.

  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

Your original post seemed accurate (in your mind), brief, clear, relevant (to this topic) and logical (okay, that's stretching the point).  So you've hit most of the principles of military writing.  But now you've complained that there was a misunderstanding on our part.  So properly written communication is important and grammar is one of the building blocks to achieve that end; you've proved our argument.

Maybe it is you who is missing the point of the OP's comments and the follow-on by others who rebutted your argument.  Despite your self-comparison to an ESL student, you seem to have a reasonable understanding of written English and (more importantly) you've properly applied what you know (in this forum at least).  That is not usually the case for many who come here and promptly demonstrate either a poor knowledge of any official language or a laziness to conform to rather simple rules of communication.  Similarly, there are rules for communication (written and spoken) in the CF with some of those being codified.

The days of soldiers with grade 8 educations who labouriously wrote round-trip memos with a crayon gripped in a ham-handed fist are long past.  They were past when I joined in the 1970s.  The modern version of that stereotype is the electronic gadget obsessed young man (or woman) whose attention span is limited to 140 characters and has a vocabulary consisting of MSN-speak and emoticons.  The sooner a prospective recruit learns that clear, concise and complete communication (written and spoken) is expected, the better off he/she will be.


edited to correct syntax

[PeterBoy]

Good point. Still bothered by OP..........but what can you do

[RDJP]

And for the comment as come talk to us in 20 years, I made mcpl in 4.5 years so I think what I was doing worked alright.

So you only made Master Corporal and then got out? Or instead, how many years and what rank are you now?

[Pusser]

Like it or lump it, the CF is now a paper driven beast. Nothing happens without the appropriate staff work.

When has it ever not been?  In fact, no modern armed force can function without a well-oiled and efficient staff machine, which depends on the ability of its members to write well.  A large part of the success of the Romans can be attributed to good staff work.

On another note, a large part of how I assess chiefs and petty officers on their PERs is dependent upon how well-written the PERs on their subordinates are...

[RDJP]

Everyone's mother probably told them not to judge people by their appearance even though most of us do take that into account in some way.

Improper grammar does not necessarily reflect one's intelligence or work ethic; however, we judge people by it anyway.

[GnyHwy]

I could agree that one doesn't need exceptional writing skills at the Jnr NCO level, but after that it is expected.  If you want to advance higher than WO, well you won't, unless you can write.  If you think that some day you can lead the institution, then you will be writing for generals, scholars and politicians.  That may take some skill.

Simple things can help anyone write well.  Before posting in this forum or before writing a PDR/PER, write your message in Microsoft Word.  Get rid of all the red, green and now blue lines and that's good start. 

Word thesaurus is your friend.  To avoid using the same word over and again, right click on the word you want to change and check synonyms.

After that, try to minimize without losing content.  Revise and read it back to yourself a few times, make sure it sounds good and your golden. 

Short but detailed, clear and concise should be your aim.

One of my favourite quotes:  I would have written a shorter letter but didn't have time. - Blaise Pascal

[Pusser]

Word thesaurus is your friend.  To avoid using the same word over and again, right click on the word you want to change and check synonyms.

Be careful with this one.  It's always a good idea to look up the "new" word in a dictionary to ensure it really means what you want it to mean.  Not every synonym is synonymous every time.

For example if you're talking about someone's pet, you can substitute "dog" for "canine," but if you're talking about someone's teeth, you're going to get a few odd looks if you do the same.

[JB 11 11]

Good point. Still bothered by OP..........but what can you do

Not much I guess. But to be clear, my post is aimed at those who would otherwise be lazy and use MSN type short hand, or not care (or even be aware) of the differences between "Their" or "There". Not necessarily serving members (even though it should still apply).

I get what your saying to a point, but overall you're basically arguing against improving ones self. I mean, if we were talking push ups or sit ups instead of grammar, everyone here would tell a would be member to do as many as they could and never mind about a finite number.


Same applies to spoken and written skills. Why settle for what will get you by? Go for broke and improve.... after all, that grey matter in between your ears is a muscle of sorts, just like your biceps.... if you don't train it, it'll get weak.

But, just to give a personal note to this: At the Canadian embassy where I work, I have dealings with the DND folk posted here quite often. One of which is the Attache himself: a Colonel. So far I've been through two, first one was Air Force, the Current one is Army.

The AF Col. was, as you might expect, the more "primp and proper" sort. Where as our current Colonel, who is Ranger qualified, served in the Airborne Regs and commanded the Pathfinder platoon is perhaps less so. But with both, I watch how I speak, and because of that we are now on a first name basis: He calls me John and I call him Colonel
But in all seriousness, if I was the type to use "Dude" or start sentences with "Like", I would not have been able to develop the good working relationship that exists between myself and the Attache's office. Same goes for the W.O. ( I've also been through two of these as well).

Although it is not the only reason for our good relationship, in both cases, my ability to speak to them in a proper manner, has gone a long way.

[BadEnoughDude]

  Your grammar will have absolutely no bearing on your success in bmq as well as your career in 85% of all trades in the military

How about you go and tell that to your RSM or CO/DCO. Be sure to use plenty of slang while you do that. After you're done, post us back and tell us how badly you got jacked up. The CF is about professionalism, and how you speak has a great bearing on how others perceive your professionalism, tact and discipline.

[ArmyVern]

You guys are missing my point. I should have explained myself better on my first post. I agree with a lot of what people are saying here, but i also disagree. Not being able to use annual other than block leave........ c'mon. I'm not talking about an illiterate soldier being successful in the CF. I'm talking about having a basic understanding of written and spoken English is all that is necessary. And for the comment as come talk to us in 20 years, I made mcpl in 4.5 years so I think what I was doing worked alright. I appreciate the comments and rebuttals. Never stop improving yourself however you see fit, and nothing that can be written on paper can compare to actions and a positive attitude. End to my argument. 

Let me point out one thing to you for writing PERs etc and defending your pers ...

They are going to hope like hell (and rightfully EXPECT) that you can:

-  write;
-  fully explain in great detail using very few words; and
-  can get a point across succinctly, properly and in a professional manner both in written format (for the PDRs & PER itself) and verbally when you need to defend and justify those scores.

After all, it is their careers riding on your ***' ability to do such. I am worried when I see a MCpl who can not even properly capitalize "MCpl" - his own rank. That tells me an awful lot about how much effort one would actually put into getting someone else's stuff correct and proper and, even greater still, it tells me exactly where your own bubbles are going to sit for communications and leadership/admin. It always matters; and, when you choose to think it doesn't -- it impacts others (usually your own troops!) negatively. Nice.

From: A CSM

[milnews.ca]

Something to add to all the great material already shared about being able to write clearly both in the military and here online - highlights mine:

We love the truism “You can’t judge a book by its cover.” We all want the world to appreciate our “inner value” without taking external appearances into consideration.

But human nature does not work that way. As Stacy London and Clinton Kelly (of the show What Not To Wear) adamantly insist, appearances matter. In the case of your wardrobe, it matters for two reasons: people make judgements about you based on your appearance, and your appearance has a huge impact on how you judge yourself.

And what is true about your wardrobe is also true about your writing: readers will make judgements about you and your ideas based on the quality of your writing. (I’m convinced that this behavior is hard-wired into human nature: we naturally notice patterns and make judgements based on those patterns. Our ancestors’ survival depended on their ability to notice and recognize patterns: that kind of cloud means rain, those kind of plants will make you sick, these kinds of berries are good to eat and we can find them there.)

James Chartrand of Men with Pens drives this home in a guest post over at Jonathan Fields’ blog:

    Online, there aren’t any face-to-face interviews. It’s all websites and blogs and newsletters and emails. Sure, you have some Skype calls and videos thrown into the mix, but for the most part, people learn more about you and your business through written communication.

    And how you present yourself in words means everything to your success.

You may have brilliant ideas, but you have to help people see that. “A good idea presented badly can look like no idea, or a bad idea,” says Patrick Winston. “So you owe it to your ideas to present them well.”

"Why worry about good writing? Because appearances matter!", Writing, Clear and Simple blog, 13 Sept 11

[Muttenthaler]

Bottom Line:

You are not going to be able to communicate your intent to others if you do not know how to communicate effectively.

Another area which must be considered is Professionalism. Nobody is going to take you seriously if you spell like a ten-year-old, and have questions marks where exclamation marks are supposed to go!

As another note, there are tiny details in the English language which make it very important to be clear and concise. A litlle change in the inflection of the sentence, for example, could have a person, who misunderstands your intent, jumping into action and calling the police on you (yes, personal experience and lesson learned). Language can become an artform in the hands of a competant user, and it has the power to create or destroy at the user's will. So, be careful!

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[Danjanou]

You guys are missing my point. I should have explained myself better on my first post. I

You know we really need to get an irony smilie here.

[BadEnoughDude]

You know we really need to get an irony smilie here.

Agreed !

[ObedientiaZelum]

PERs aren't 95% cut and paste?   

Spelling and grammar are important, much to my chargin. I'm horrible with both, members of this site have been kind enough to mentor me on it which makes me able to communicate more effectively as a leader. Which of course appreciate.

There is a difference between trying to mentor someone about grammar and making a huge deal about their spelling when you're replying them in a message forum where one basically tries to discredit the other persons entire argument opinion or point because they mix up your and you're. 

Anytime I'm discussing something about lets say physical fitness or recruiting and someones main comeback effort is them pointing out spelling mistakes in pretty colours I know they're scrambling- and they usually do it in a dick manner.

[milnews.ca]

You know we really need to get an irony smilie here.

Ask and you shall belatedly receive.....

[jasonf6]

As another note, there are tiny details in the English language which make it very important to be clear and concise. A litlle change in the inflection of the sentence, for example, could have a person, who misunderstands your intent, jumping into action and calling the police on you (yes, personal experience and lesson learned). Language can become an artform in the hands of a competant user, and it has the power to create or destroy at the user's will. So, be careful!

Do you mean going from "Let's eat, Grandma" to "Let's eat Grandma"? 

[rmc_wannabe]

I think this should be mandatory reading for anyone writing a PDR/PER:

Politics and the English Language by George Orwell 1946
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

I was guilty of a lot of these instances when I wrote a PDR for the first time. I particularly like the rule "Never us a long word where a short one will do."