Topic: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.

[mariomike]

Maintaining vehicles and equipment that are necessary in order for your unit to accomplish its mission is not "busy work".

I agree.
It may take some getting used to by semi-skilled applicants coming out of the colleges. These days their experience with the above, including station cleaning, could be minimal at best, or close to nil. Much of that work used to be done by the crews themselves. But now - depending on which service they precepted with - it has almost entirely been taken over by the Operations Support Division staff. 

[BadgerTrapper]

Medical Technician's deployed to the Combat arms, do they fight with that unit as if they were the same role as that unit. I.e. Would a Medical Tech with the infantry fight with the Infantry? And man an artillery piece if they are artillery?

[medicineman]

You are ancillary staff with the Cbt Arms - if you're in a firefight, you shoot back obviously, but you also have other issues to worry about usually as well  .  You aren't a gun number on a gun or crewman in a tank (though you can be crew in the armoured ambulance).

MM

[BadgerTrapper]

Though they wouldn't give a Med Tech a C9 and have them lay down suppressive fire? They'd focus on being a mobile element in a Firefight, attending to the wounds of those who need it? While partaking in the Firefight itself . . . I like the sounds of this.

[medicineman]

I'd be surprised if they gave you a C-9 - they're a bit of a target, and the infantry guys have a vested interest in making sure you're protected.

MM

[DiverMedic]

I'd be surprised if they gave you a C-9 - they're a bit of a target, and the infantry guys have a vested interest in making sure you're protected.

MM

Chances are highly unlikely you will be given a C9 or C6, you need to remain mobile in case anyone is injured, plus the MG is a pretty essential piece of kit in an infantry section.  Having said that tho, you are trained in how to use them and most medics end up doing SQ and spend some time doing live fire.

DM

[jmlane]

Maintaining vehicles and equipment that are necessary in order for your unit to accomplish its mission is not "busy work".

It may be considered busy work for those members that signed-up to do a job that they did not think included such duties, regardless of how necessary it may be in actuality. My point was that the recruiting materials and information given by some recruiters do not always honestly disclose the frequency of your day-to-day admin/maintenance duties. I understand trying to obtain recruiting numbers and using marketing tactics to do so, however there should be more clarity about the not-so-obvious duties each member can expect to be doing regularly. It is preferable to have people with an understanding that these duties are necessary to maintain operational capacity (as you pointed out), as opposed to dealing with disgruntled new members who felt "tricked" into that work.

[Jim Seggie]

I'd be surprised if they gave you a C-9 - they're a bit of a target, and the infantry guys have a vested interest in making sure you're protected.

MM

Not to mention that as a med tech you carry a weapon only  for self defense or the defense of your patients.

[medicineman]

Not to mention that as a med tech you carry a weapon only  for self defense or the defense of your patients patience.

FTFY... . 

All joking aside, we've crossed into an interesting gray zone - we remounted C-6's on the armoured ambs, we're preaching scene safety=killing/suppressing bad guys, etc.  In theory, medics aren't to carry or be employed on crew served weapons - of course my Pl WO with 1VP many moons ago then made me the #2 on the 60mm if we were in a defensive, since the CCP and alternate CP were one in the same with the mortar pit, so I could be gainfully employed if not plugging holes.  From dealings with the US, in particular the USN Hospital Corpsmen with the Marines, there were wide variations of what they carried - usually a pistol and or a 12G shotgun, sometimes an M-16/M-4.  As the guys with their Recon Units are considered shooters, some often ended up with a SAW.  The Army medics I worked with usually had an M-16 or M-4.

I'd be interested to hear the legal interpretation of a medic carrying even the cut down version of the C-9, since even a rifle is an offensive weapon really, since the range exceeds that of our personal defense type weapons (SMG's, pistols).
 
My morning caffiene deficient

MM

[MedCorps]

There has been some talk on this recently, given the current contemporary operating environment.

It comes down to something like this:

A weapon is a tool. Tools can be used offensively or defensively, or to prop open a door or as shovel.

Canadian personnel subject to the Geneva Convention, regardless of the environment or adversarial compliance with the Geneva Convention will only use weapons defensively to protect themselves or their patients.  Can a aggressive fighting defence exist? Most certainly... if required based on the threat. We have a number of examples from the current conflict.

So then we look at the concept of  weapons for CFHS personnel, based on the War Establishment.  These include the service pistol, the service rifle / carbine (although there are no C8's on the TO&E), the light machine gun for area defence (Role 2 and 3), and the Claymore Command Detonated Weapon (Role 2 and 3). If it is on the TO&E for the War Establishment is it save to assume that one can use it in a defensive role.  Most notably missing is the fragmentation grenade, which has been deemed but someone to be a weapon designed more for offensive purposes than defensive purposes and hence not on the TO&E for HS units.

The C6 on armoured ambulances, is still a fiercely debated topic and is a frequent ethical topic debated at all officer ranks and within the JAG (I am not sure I have ever heard and NCM debate the concept much).  It is a current exemption to the rule, based on a sound legal opinion and requires a semi-annual review and sign off by the Generals involved in assuming the liability and risk for allowing such an activity. We will see where this settles when all is said and done at the end of Afghanistan operations. The War Establishment TO&E does not have this weapons system on allocation.

You are in a position that is being attacked and a collective defence needs to be mounted with you as the #2 on the mortar... is this ok?  I would think so, it is given that a collective defence is required to assure your survival and you are just doing your bit.

You are trying to prep fire a target with the the same mortar prior to it being assaulted with troops as part of an offensive operations with you as #2 on the tube... is this ok?  I would suggest no.

You need to fire illumination... I would suggest this is fine, regardless of the offensive / defensive situation as the weapon system is not being used directly for killing but rather as a flashlight.

In the end we all need to live with our actions at the end of the day and we are all grown ups.

There are some other issues with respect to the GC and war that are a little more complex and that I will not get into here.

Just some food for thought based on the current state of business.

MC

[ModlrMike]

The C6 on armoured ambulances, is still a fiercely debated topic and is a frequent ethical topic debated at all officer ranks and within the JAG (I am not sure I have ever heard and NCM debate the concept much).

That's because we understand that ambulances are bullet magnets that require the ability to provide sufficient return fire.

[mikeninercharlie]

I was present when a former DGHS damn near blew an ovary when she discovered that ambulances, with the red crosses concealed, were being armed with C6s. As a non-clinician, even she understood that ambulance crews had no desire in becoming martyrs in a jihad...

[medicineman]

I was present when a former DGHS damn near blew an ovary when she discovered that ambulances, with the red crosses concealed, were being armed with C6s. As a non-clinician, even she understood that ambulance crews had no desire in becoming martyrs in a jihad...

Mike - I seriously doubt she had ovaries...

It's a little odd when you look at the US - their air ambulances and their armoured land ambulances don't have defensive MG's on them, even in Iraq or Afghanistan (last I looked anyway, please correct me if more up to date info is out there)...and yes, they're lead magnets.  I seem to recall going through this in 94 when we deployed to Croatia...apparently the 113 ambs had the old Browning GPMG's mounted in 93, then they got taken down in 94.  The story we were told was it gave the silhouette of a combat vehicle because of the gun, so to ensure the bad guys wouldn't try to light us up if they could only see the shape, they decided to take the guns down.  I'd also heard some folks were a little disturbed that one of the callsigns had apparently tried engaging some Croats in Medak with said GPMG.

I got told off for doing air sentry in Kabul on the vehicle I usually rode in -Bison MRT- when we did convoy escorts...was even told so much as to not have my weapon visible and keep my GC crosshairs visbile on my arm (I used to do the opposite) if I wanted to "hang out" in the family hatch.  No names no pack drill...

MM

[Jim Seggie]

I can't recall an M113 Amb being armed. However, it's Afghanistan it would make sense to arm the ambs as the Taliban didn't sign the Geneva conventions. No doubt in my mind that the Red Cross made an excellent aiming mark.

[DiverMedic]

I got told off for doing air sentry in Kabul on the vehicle I usually rode in -Bison MRT- when we did convoy escorts...was even told so much as to not have my weapon visible and keep my GC crosshairs visbile on my arm (I used to do the opposite) if I wanted to "hang out" in the family hatch.  No names no pack drill...

MM

I know I had to get permission to be air sentry in my Bison.  Was actually there for a month before it happened.  Due to decreased manning, I was also air sentry in a LAV and TLAV at times.

We were also told NOT to wear the red crosses outside of KAF or anything medical related (ie: no MEDIC badges or anything with a cross)

DM