Topic: Taking plq course

[fake penguin]

I have been approached by my section commander to take my plq. I honestly don't feel ready. Now he keeps telling me that the unit needs Mclp and i owe it to the military to step up and take responsibliities. Just wondering how people felt about this topic, should you take plq because your ready or should you take it just because the unit needs you to. I' am a reservist if that helps.

[CDN Aviator]

Go on the course. You might just surprise yourself.

It is PLQ after all, not advanced rocket design.

[ObedientiaZelum]

Like CDN Aviator said, you might surprise yourself.

A big pet peeve if mine is soldiers like yourself going on PLQ before they are ready to be leaders.

The sad truth however is that the reserves will send anyone on PLQ.  The turn over rate is so high that they need to send anyone who is available in the hopes that they might keep a MCpl around for a few years.

You can either suck it up and go do your best or you can refuse to go and have the guy beside you who can't tie his boots right sent on course- which he will pass because everyone passes then he will go back to your unit and be your boss.

If your intimidated by the responsibility (which is natural) it will ALL go away the first time you  get orders by someone with the backbone of a gummy bear.

[George Wallace]

It is nice of your Section Comd to ask you, but remember this; it is not him/her who will put you on this course.   They will have some input in the selection process by submitting your name up the chain and recommending you be placed on a merit list.  In the end, after a Merit Board, the CO and Sgt Major will be the ones you put you onto a PLQ. 

I agree with the comments from CDN Aviator and Grimaldus.  Making a decision is a big part of leadership.  So often we see people in leadership or management posns who can not make decisions.  That leads to Epic Fails.

[PMedMoe]

On my PLQ, I learned how not to be a leader.  Take it.   

[NFLD Sapper]

On my PLQ, I learned how not to be a leader.  Take it.   

Same here.....my staff where unprofessional Infanteers/Truckers/Armd Recce

[ObedientiaZelum]

Same here.....my staff where unprofessional Infanteers/Truckers/Armd Recce

I'm not sure how it works with the regs but with the reserves we send soldiers on PLQ *WAY* before they are ready.

We send guys and girls who haven't had the chance to make mistakes as privates and corporals so now their first mistakes are as MCpls who are both in charge of troops and acting as mentors.

Not much to do about it though.

[PMedMoe]

I'm not sure how it works with the regs but with the reserves we send soldiers on PLQ *WAY* before they are ready.

I agree.  I used to do medical coverage for them and hoped I'd get sent on a Reserve course.   

[a Sig Op]

I'm not sure how it works with the regs but with the reserves we send soldiers on PLQ *WAY* before they are ready.

We send guys and girls who haven't had the chance to make mistakes as privates and corporals so now their first mistakes are as MCpls who are both in charge of troops and acting as mentors.

Not much to do about it though.

Your beef has nothing to do with sending people on the course... it has to do with units *promoting* them way before they're ready, just because somone is qualified doesn't mean they're suitable for promotion (Regardless if it ends up happening that way).

Attending a PLQ course, and learning useful skills, administration, instruction, and leadership, would be useful to any corporal. How they choose to use those skills should then determine whether they get promoted or not...

[George Wallace]

Your beef has nothing to do with sending people on the course... it has to do with units *promoting* them way before they're ready, just because somone is qualified doesn't mean they're suitable for promotion (Regardless if it ends up happening that way).

Attending a PLQ course, and learning useful skills, administration, instruction, and leadership, would be useful to any corporal. How they choose to use those skills should then determine whether they get promoted or not...

In the past, it was a means to have a potential Jr NCO (Cpl/Pte) get leadership training and experience to develop and be promotable in the future.  The Comd of LFCA pulled a boner a few years back when he dictated that all graduates of the PLQ WOULD be promoted within two weeks of their graduation.  This caught many Reserve units by surprise, especially those who had Crse Loaded a candidate who was "available" to do the training, but perhaps not yet ready to be promoted. 

In the Reserve World, one has to realize that not all Reservists are avail 24 and 7 to do a Tasking, Tour, or Course.  Some who are students or unemployed may be able to take a Tasking, Tour or Course on short notice, but the majority who have good civvie jobs need lots of lead time to arrange time off to meet these commitments.

[ObedientiaZelum]

dictated that all graduates of the PLQ WOULD be promoted within two weeks of their graduation. 

Exactly. Thus I find a soldier from my course bragging about having less than 2 years in the reserves being promoted to MCpl who was back in Petawawa the following year instructing on a PLQ Mod 6 Infantry course.

[a Sig Op]

Exactly. Thus I find a soldier from my course bragging about having less than 2 years in the reserves being promoted to MCpl

I just threw up in my mouth a bit.... I thought we still had the 4 year time in as a requirement as well?

My better half is currently attending a mo'litia BMQ course... I know maybe half her instructors, of thoe, most only earned their leaf in the last 12 months or less... some of the absurd things I've heard just make me shake my head... it can all be chaulked up to inexperience, and they'll learn eventually (I hope), but the problem is, the instructors teaching on the course are *all* inexperienced... there's no one to guide them along....

[Eye In The Sky]

Makes you wonder if the Crse O/WO are "monitoring" periods of instruction & trg.  I've taught on BMQs/QL3/QL4, etc and been Snr Instr, Crse WO before and there was always 'checks and balances' when heavy on the inexperienced instructor side of the house to make sure things were going as they should.  In my experience, courses always seemed to run better if there was a Snr Instr/Trg Sgt appointed, as the Crse WO was sometimes away doing Admin/co-ord/etc.  Thats how we tended to do things atleast, for both in-house and courses at the LFA TC.

If the problem is most of the Instructors are very inexperienced, the Snr NCOs/WOs can manage that if they are aware (and willing).

When LFA Standards came to pay the course a visit, the Standards folks also sometimes had a Q & A session with the candidates.  I know of a few times that a Q & A session resulted in 'concerns' being discussed with the Crse O/Crse WO and Standards staff.

 

[a Sig Op]

It's not just the instruction though, it's general actions and attitudes...

As a prime example, she asked me a few weeks back if I had any C7 handouts, I said of course I do, but ask your section commander, he'll get you somthing. She asked, the response was "if you wanted that, you should have taken notes in class" (Ironically, the very well done handout I gave her after, I originally took from the common drive belonging to that individuals home unit, and it had been created by a senior NCO from the same)

The worst part is, these junior leaders who weren't ready to be promoted and aren't ready for the job are teaching and mentoring other people... who are going to be even worse off when they end up in the same posistion...

Is there a solution? I have no idea what that solution is... I do know I try to pass on as much of my own experience as often as I can, whenever and wherever I can... I've still got plenty left to learn though, as does everyone....

Is the "promoted within two weeks" an LFCA policy? Or higher?

Either way, I still maintain, everyone should do the PLQ course, even if you're never promoted, you've got a better understanding of what's going on above you, and a better understanding of how to do your own job.

If you do get promoted, whether you feel you were ready or not, know your limitations, strive to over come them.

[Eye In The Sky]

It's not just the instruction though, it's general actions and attitudes...

That is why I said monitoring periods of instruction and trg, which IMO covers everything outside of the 'classroom' aspect.

As a prime example, she asked me a few weeks back if I had any C7 handouts, I said of course I do, but ask your section commander, he'll get you somthing. She asked, the response was "if you wanted that, you should have taken notes in class".

Having seen this type of stuff before, the benefit of having a Trg Sgt comes into play with stuff like this.  I was Trg Sgt/Snr Instr before and the CTP/TS/QS was my bible for 'min requirements' for trg aids, but I could also make suggestions to the Crse O/WO that could then be implemented, their call.  Or just task an Instr to do it.  Simple.  If they ask "why, they should be taking notes"...well then its a chance to educate MCpl Bloggins with the shiny Leaf on life as an instr.  I'd rather the students pay attention to the EDI stuff during a skill lecture than have their head down writing notes.  If I am teaching correctly, using ICEPAC concepts, EDI, etc then most of the students should be grasping the skill.  I also suggest if the staff provide a handout, that also makes no question on the content.   

The worst part is, these junior leaders who weren't ready to be promoted and aren't ready for the job are teaching and mentoring other people... who are going to be even worse off when they end up in the same posistion...

Yup, and that makes the importance of mentoring by experienced Instr's, Snr NCOs and WO's all the more important.  Don't let that cycle complete itself, break the jnr intrs of bad habits and mindsets now.  That, IMO, is a leadership function and responsibility.  I remember some of the stupid stuff I did as a Cpl right off CLC, and am glad there was some people who corrected me.   So in one sense, to me, this isn't a new problem, as I was 'that new instr' many years ago who needed to be sorted out.

Is there a solution? I have no idea what that solution is... I do know I try to pass on as much of my own experience as often as I can, whenever and wherever I can... I've still got plenty left to learn though, as does everyone....

To me, thats a simple answer.  Good leadership by their immediate superiors, who 'set the example', set the standard, insist it be met and also lead by example themselves.

[George Wallace]

Also remember, as was pointed out by PMedMoe, you will always learn.  You will learn just as much from bad/poor instructors as you will from the excellent ones.  What will you learn?  You will learn what not to do or what not to be.  You will then have that experience to pass on to subordinates someday.  It brings up that old question; do you learn more from your mistakes, or learn more from your successes?

[recceguy]

In the Reserve world people often get sent before being ready. This occurs when HQ and Schools keep insisting on changing\ cancelling courses and we end up with a huge lack of supervisors. It starts with not enough MCpls, moves on to too few Sgts and ends with no WOs. Units have little choice except to send anyone that's available because they have no supervisors left. It's taken my unit a good five years to dig ourselves out of that shortage of staff hole and we're just, now, getting our heads above water. It will only take the cancellation of a course or a change of dates resulting in people's vacation time getting screwed to put us right back. If a person comes back not quite ready, he can be mentored at home by his boss until he can fly on his own. At least he has the basics. Bad MCpls are a result of bad Sgts and, to some extent, other bad superiors, that's it. No need to look further. Don't place so much blame on the neophyte, go after his bosses.

[dogger1936]

In the Reserve world people often get sent before being ready. This occurs when HQ and Schools keep insisting on changing\ cancelling courses and we end up with a huge lack of supervisors. It starts with not enough MCpls, moves on to too few Sgts and ends with no WOs. Units have little choice except to send anyone that's available because they have no supervisors left. It's taken my unit a good five years to dig ourselves out of that shortage of staff hole and we're just, now, getting our heads above water. It will only take the cancellation of a course or a change of dates resulting in people's vacation time getting screwed to put us right back. If a person comes back not quite ready, he can be mentored at home by his boss until he can fly on his own. At least he has the basics. Bad MCpls are a result of bad Sgts and, to some extent, other bad superiors, that's it. No need to look further. Don't place so much blame on the neophyte, go after his bosses.

While I don't know you or your unit personally its good to see Snr NCO's looking at their units and making a change. Too many units don't look past the trg year; and it's awesome to see a unit doing this.

BZ to you and your unit.

[Spectrum]

Exactly. Thus I find a soldier from my course bragging about having less than 2 years in the reserves being promoted to MCpl who was back in Petawawa the following year instructing on a PLQ Mod 6 Infantry course.

Less than 2 years and a  MCpl?  For real? 

[Eye In The Sky]

Another case of "the more things change, the more they stay the same".  I remember this 'stuff' from late 80's/early to mid 90s.

I can only speak for what I saw in the then-AMA;  Regimental 'CLC" courses over a few weekends (you can imagine the lvl of Jr NCO they produced), Instr's that had no M of I knowledge, let alone a qual, etc being employed as Instr's, it really was nothing short of a gong-show.  As the "militia" transformed more to the Army Reserve, there seemed to be a FAR better grip (while still far from ideal at times) on the selection, trg and employment of Jnr NCOs.  There was more emphasis on actual experience, some common sense applied when filling the summer tasking brick, etc.  The ball was moving the right way down the field.

It sounds like an old problem is becoming new once again....

[Thucydides]

If you are going on a PLQ course, ensure you get as much mentoring as possible during the DL portion of the course.

As an instructor on a PLQ Mod 1-3 course right now, I can truthfully say the candidates come from their DL's woefully unprepared to instruct classes. As an example, I took in their lesson plans on day one, and found multiple errors (ranging from fairly hilarious like "Christianing" the ground prior to a lesson, to bone headed like final quesrtions totally unrelated to the lesson just taught, to bits of other lessons cut and pasted in the lesson plan). Reviewing principles of instructin like ICEPAC and verbals support like CREST got me and my 2I/C blank stares...We even had to do impromptu instruction on things like how to plan lessons, create and use training aides like flip charts and whiteboards (lord help us if anyone decides to be a PowerPoint Ranger).

For potential candidates preparing to go on their Mod 6; hit the books (weapons pams, patrolling and fieldcraft aid memoires) and have your unit give you "hands on" field kit like the GPMG and radios; we have no time to retrain you if you can't remember how to troubleshoot or program a 522. If you can't read a map or shoot a bearing, best not come out at all....

[dogger1936]

I find reservist are harder on themselves than anyone! I personally did a PLQ mods 1-5 and 6 which was fully staffed by reservist and I was one of two regular force candidates. This staff ran an excellent course. infact it was the same course who had ran IIRC 6 back to back courses and had it down to a science. Well ran and well instructed course.

I personally wouldn't worry about only having a short amount of time in the military. I was a "fast mover" and had mine at the 5 year mark. There is nothing on that course you haven't done or seen before. Honestly as a Pte, Cpl I had heard orders enough that I could make them up off the top of my head day one. Drill....well you've been doing that since day 1; only difference your calling out the words of command. You reacted to it for years now you have to teach a simple lesson. Classroom. If your unit keeps their standards up at trg nights you have already seen how to mark a chalkboard and teach a class. You have heard the control statement a million times. You have heard the proper order it is taught in.

Small party tasking is something you get your kids to do. Go clean your room and I will provide direction and instruction on what needs to get done. Not much difference.

Patrols. you've humped along on them before. Aside from knowing how to read a map it's a fairly basic short route to a clearly defined obj.

Some people struggle with the course however most if not all the stuff taught on these courses you've already done and seen before.

If for nothing else it's a bit of class A and B time anyway! Go enjoy!

[dangerboy]

dogger 1936. I think it depends on your unit and trade on how much exposure you have received on the items you listed off.  I have taught many PLQ course and a lot of candidates from non-combat arms (Reserve and Reg Force) have never gone on patrol except for the intro ones you do on BMQ Land, and proper orders and battle procedure, even in the combat arms this gets abreviated and a lot of Section Comds do not give full orders and just skim through the orders process.

I will agree with Thucydides that the current DL package is garbage, we have to re-teach everything that the students were supposed to learn on the DL.  I have noted it on every ECC and have addressed it with standards several times.  When you are doing the DL, talk to someone and get help.  Make sure you understand how to write lesson plans and ICEPAC.

[Ham Sandwich]

There was a time when i would have said that if you were approached by your section commander, then it's probably because someone qualified to make that decision knows you're ready.

However, times have changed. And as someone said, the leadership gap is being filled by the army in a rushed manner. So you need to decide for yourself whether you want to be a MCpl yet (because PLQ course reports are now coming with MCpl ranks stapled to them).

While the army has it's requirements, you need to do what's correct for you. You have to decide, do you want to be the guy who was in only 3 years before he reached MCpl, and then be a weak NCO for a number of years? Or do you think you could hack it and would make a novice but solid Jr NCO? I'm afraid there's nobody on these boards who can answer that one for you.

....................................................................

To speak more generally about the issue, I have to agree with the folks expressing concern about how the army is going about their junior leadership selection and training.


And i use the term "selection" loosely, as it seems the only requirement for selection these days is availability...
...combine that with the "no fail" policies...
...and combine that with the fact that completion of PLQ means automatic promotion to MCpl...

....and you end up with a system that basically has exactly no coherent selection process whatsoever. Brigade HQs demand that positions be filled regardless of whether units feel they have anyone who's suitable, and those positions all to often get filled just for the sake of filling them. We're basically just promoting the first people who were available for PLQ. That's a problem, and the quality of NCO in the reserves has suffered as a result, and will continue to suffer.

When i joined the reserves way back in the day, i recall that the talk of the town every year was who would be selected to go on JLC. Would it be this guy, or that guy? Would bloggins get picked or not? And it was a big deal to us pte/cpls because it mattered to us who was in a leadership position next year, and then maybe a year or two later, be a MCpl.

Nowadays, the rank is more or less "handed out like candy" to the first guys who can commit to the course, and there's no selection process whatsoever. Not only does this give us less strong leaders, it dilutes the credibility of the rank. And diluting the credibility of the rank alters the hierarchical dynamic of the organization. Now if the army had set out to alter that dynamic for some coherent reason, then fine, but in reality, it's being altered as an adverse side-effect of poor staffing policies, and this is a problem.

[recceguy]

While MCpl is a substantial leap in a career, it is still a phase of assessment for the unit. And while there are lots of PLQ spots to fill, the spots for Sgt and WO course candidates are slim and dear. So while a person may squeek through and be a mediocre MCpl, their chance of progressing will pretty well end there. The units will not waste those valued one or two spots a year on people that can't progress with their rank.