Author Topic: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"  (Read 3389 times)

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Online Dimsum

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"Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« on: February 06, 2012, 17:14:56 »
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/06/matthew-fisher-australian-defence-spending-puts-canada-to-shame/

Even though I agree with the sentiment, I believe there is one major relationship factor that Matthew Fisher has wrong (or at least backwards):  Australia and Canada aren't similar on their regional spheres of influence.  Australia is closer to the States, while New Zealand is closer to Canada; a smaller population in very close relationship with a larger population.  Australia would obviously feel the need to defend itself (and NZ) against regional threats while in the Canadian public's view, Canada will rely on the States for continental defence.

I'm not saying that the "relationship" perception is right, but if someone (PAO or otherwise) is trying to convince the avg Canadian that we should be spending in proportion to Australia, it will be tough unless the US decides to "cut us off" or become hostile.
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Offline quadrapiper

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 18:24:46 »
I'm not saying that the "relationship" perception is right, but if someone (PAO or otherwise) is trying to convince the avg Canadian that we should be spending in proportion to Australia, it will be tough unless the US decides to "cut us off" or become hostile.
Also, our neighbours are all reasonably well governed, and don't generally favour us with swarms of refugees and smugglers.

Offline john10

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2012, 16:17:13 »
You guys both make excellent points. There is no "shame" in spending less on defence than another country. Military spending is be a function of defence needs, not some sacred title that should be kept up regardless of reality. The fact is that Canada, by reason of its geography and neighbours, faces few important threats to its security. Accordingly, it spends less on its military.

Offline VIChris

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2012, 16:36:55 »
The issue shouldn't be how much gets spent, but rather how it gets spent. Are we efficient in our spending? Does all the money go to work? How much gets swept under the red tape?

Offline GAP

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2012, 18:20:36 »
Matt Gurney: No Canadian party, including the Tories, really cares about defence
 Article Link
Matt Gurney  Feb 7, 2012

In a recent column, Postmedia foreign correspondent Matthew Fisher wrote of the enormous gap between the Australian and Canadian concepts of national defence. Canada has 40% again of Australia’s population, and nearly double the GDP, yet the Australians spend $7-billion more on defence each year, and have a military only slightly smaller than our own, with more and better equipment. If Canada were to match Australia’s spending on defence as a percentage of GDP, we would need to ramp up military spending to between $35-40-billion, up from the current figure of $22-billion. Instead, National Defence is being eyed for cuts as part of the federal government’s austerity program.

Australia and Canada make for an interesting comparison given the obvious historical and cultural similarities, but Fisher rightly points out that the nations exist in very different geopolitical environments. Canada has counted on the U.S. to do the heavy lifting for continental security for generations, knowing help is never further away than the North Dakota National Guard. Australia, on the other hand, is an underpopulated bastion of Western civilization in an increasingly tough neighbourhood, far from its friends and allies. If trouble erupts, even if help comes, it will take time to get there. Australia needs to be ready to look to its own defence, at least in the early days of any contingency.

But Fisher makes another point — Australia’s larger emphasis on defence may be a necessity, but it’s also possible thanks to the country’s mature political stance on defence. To the Australians, national security isn’t about politics, but securing the nation, which is something valued more than partisanship. In Canada, by contrast, each party uses the military as a political prop, to use and abuse as necessary for electoral gain, and then ignore and underfund until the next election.

This is again related to our proximity to the friendly American giant — Canada has been spared the need to have a serious, adult national conversation about our defensive needs and geopolitical reality because we can count on our neighbour to keep the peace for us. This has let the entire Canadian political consensus develop essentially without reference to national security issues, with the military more about party identity than defence.

Take the NDP, for example. In 2006, their party platform didn’t even have a dedicated section to defence. It declared that the military was needed to “support the priorities of peacekeeping, peacemaking, humanitarian and environmental support operations,” and that well-trained personnel and good “basic” equipment were necessary. Beyond that, it promised only to make sure Canadian troops are only ever deployed as part of an international peace and security efforts (no explanation as to why this is a good thing was offered), and to speed up compensation for service members exposed to Agent Orange and the clean up of chemical dumps at former military bases.

Compare that to their 2011 platform, which is essentially a repeat of their 2008 offering. The NDP promised to “give the men and women of the Canadian Forces, who put their lives on the line every day, the best equipment to do the job with, proper support and benefits.” The job of the military was to defend Canada, provide “support for peacemaking, peace-building and peacekeeping around the world,” and disaster recovery. Staffing and equipment would reflect these needs, and the NDP even committed to maintain “current planned levels” of defence spending.
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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2012, 19:43:35 »
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/06/matthew-fisher-australian-defence-spending-puts-canada-to-shame/

Even though I agree with the sentiment, I believe there is one major relationship factor that Matthew Fisher has wrong (or at least backwards):  Australia and Canada aren't similar on their regional spheres of influence.  Australia is closer to the States, while New Zealand is closer to Canada; a smaller population in very close relationship with a larger population.  Australia would obviously feel the need to defend itself (and NZ) against regional threats while in the Canadian public's view, Canada will rely on the States for continental defence.

Not necessarily so. I think that Australians can count on the US defending it as well. Obama recently announced that up to 2,500 US Marines would be stationed in Darwin.  http://www.smh.com.au/national/obama-to-send-marines-to-darwin-20111116-1njd7.html.

I would argue that Australia has earned this close relationship with the US through it's steadfast support of the US as a strong regional partner but even more importantly, for it's role in the war in Iraq and Afghanistan although this contribution was relatively small when one considers the overall forces deployed. Australia is a good case study in the cost of getting to sit at the big kids table in this regard.

I think the main reason that Australia has tolerated, and in fact demanded, much greater defence spending then Canada has to due with Australia's experiences in the Second World War. Australia was under very serious threat of invasion by the Japan and was even bombed in several air raids. Because of Australia's decisions to involve itself actively in most major US involved military conflict  in recent history (Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, Iraq 2003, Afghanistan, etc.) as well as it's own regional conflicts (East Timor), the Australian population has grown much more accustomed to seeing its military as a force that is frequently put in harms way. Yes, Canada was involved in some of these conflicts but the traditional narrative in Canadian society has been the myth of the peacekeeper and not the portrayal of the Canadian military as a conflict oriented organization.

Offline Spectrum

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 19:51:05 »
If I can ever get over my fear of snakes, I will beg borrow and steal my way into joining the ADF!
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Offline exabedtech

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2012, 20:22:25 »
Other than our biggest trading partner and ally, there really is no one within a few thousand km of this country who poses any real threat unless of course you want to include our arctic vs russian arctic or greenland.
The same cannot be said for Australia.  They have credible threats to their security and their major allies in this world are quite a distance away.  Comparing these two really is apples and oranges. 
Other than the savings realized in the scaled back mission in Afghanistan and maybe (huge maybe) the odd empire at NDHQ, I can't imagine where they would cut our forces.

Offline opp550

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 21:20:20 »
Don't they also need to fund the ADF to properly deal with the fact that their country is absolutely loaded with all sorts of totally deadly little bugs and creatures? I don't think I saw that part.  ;D

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 21:24:29 »
Don't they also need to fund the ADF to properly deal with the fact that their country is absolutely loaded with all sorts of totally deadly little bugs and creatures? I don't think I saw that part.  ;D

It's only the armoured ones they get concerned about, the rest are civilians......
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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2012, 10:26:27 »
Having a reserve Special Forces regiments like the ADF wouldn't be too bad would it?  ;D
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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2012, 11:01:04 »
Having a reserve Special Forces regiments like the ADF wouldn't be too bad would it?  ;D

We already have some "Special" reserve units.  >:D

Offline Teeps74

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2012, 11:28:00 »
We already have some "Special" reserve units.  >:D

Hey now... I AM special because my mom told me so... It is why I never take off my tacvest and helmet (does get a little uncomfortable in the shower tho...).
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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2012, 12:15:37 »
I've had the opportunity to spend the last few years working within Australian Army Aviation and I have to say, I think Fisher's column is very much a "grass is always greener" kind of thing. VIChris made the comment above, and I agree, that efficiency is more important. From my exposure I would say that the CF is less inefficient (sorry, I couldn't say the CF is efficient with a straight face  ;D).

Just from the perspective of Army Aviation, the Army spends wastes a lot money to maintain a distinct tactical aviation, and I would argue with a worse outcome then what 1 Wg provides (and even more so once the -147F's come on line). While they have the Tiger ARH, the way that program has been handled, if I had to decide right now I would take the INGRESS Griffon over their Tigers.

The "grass is greener" mentality is just as prominent Down Under, a lot of the guys I've worked with and talked to are envious of what we have in the CF, I hear the Cbt Arm's guys talking about our Leo-2's, LAV-3's, M-777's (which the ADF is just starting to field now) and many of them have expressed interest in transferring to the CF. 

All this to say that the article that started this was a poorly applied comparison, for many of the geopolitical reasons already made above and because while the ADF spends more then we do but in the end they really don't get any more bang for their buck.

Cheers

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 12:46:22 »
After meeting my future co-workers in the RAAF on my HHT, I see a few things about the CF that are pretty good in comparison:

1.  Aircrew and non-aircrew postings are different lengths (aircrew are generally 2 years, non-aircrew 3-4) and it doesn't seem like they have the same tendency to try and post service couples together
2.  House-hunting trips are a foreign concept to them; they get plopped onto a new base, given 2 weeks in a hotel and told to find a place.
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2012, 19:56:46 »
jeffb:
Quote
I think the main reason that Australia has tolerated, and in fact demanded, much greater defence spending then Canada has to due with Australia's experiences in the Second World War. Australia was under very serious threat of invasion by the Japan and was even bombed in several air raids.

Not as threatened as Australia, but still a threat was the Japanese invasion/occupancy of some of the Aleutian Islands, bombing of Dutch Harbor and other activities on the Cdn/US Pacific coast. Balloon bombs later in the war

Photo Caption

Kiska Alaska 1943

13 Canadian Infantry Bde. An official Canadian Army photo of two officers returning from Kiska in the Aleutian Islands. The 13 Canadian Infantry Brigade was part of the Canadian element in the operation to remove the Japanese threat from the northwest Pacific. These officers appear to be wearing the two different types of Kiska patches, the printed version on the officer on the left (Capt R.D. Chaneman) and the embroidered pattern on the officer on the right.
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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2012, 20:07:35 »
In early 1942 Australia found herself with her army and most of her navy in the Med, while the RAAF was split between the Med and the UK. There were no modern fighters in the country and no prospect of getting any. Not only that, but one of her four infantry divisions was lost at Singapore and the Dutch East Indies. This was despite repeated promises by the UK that it would come to her aid, and keep funding cruisers for the RN, thank you very much.

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2012, 21:14:58 »
Add New Zealand's forces to Old Sweats post .

A bit of trivia to indicate how early in the war the ANZAC forces were deployed is this tidbit:

HMNZS Achilles (pennant number 70) was a Leander class light cruiser which served with the Royal New Zealand Navy in World War II. She became famous for her part in the Battle of the River Plate, December 1939, alongside HMS Ajax and HMS Exeter.

Achilles was originally built for the Royal Navy, she was commissioned as HMS Achilles on 10 October 1933. She would serve with the Royal Navy's New Zealand Division from 31 March 1937 up to the creation of the Royal New Zealand Navy, into which she was transferred in September 1941 and renamed HMNZS Achilles. Her crew was approximately 60% from New Zealand.

Achilles played herself in the film The Battle of the River Plate (U.S. title: Pursuit of the Graf Spee) in 1956. One of the very few times,  that a ship "stared" as herself in a movie!

HMS Cumberland also played herself, but only in the same minor part as she actually did during the battle.

A fair number of New Zealander's were members of the LRDG.

Sorry for the highjack.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 10:27:24 by Rifleman62 »
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Offline RDBZ

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 02:50:24 »


All this to say that the article that started this was a poorly applied comparison, for many of the geopolitical reasons already made above and because while the ADF spends more then we do but in the end they really don't get any more bang for their buck.



Maybe no more bang for each buck, but there are a lot more bucks to start with that finance capabilities like: Wedgetail AEW&C, JORN, Tiger ARH (yes, Eurocopter have taken their time, but that capability is maturing as evidenced by its use by the French army in Afganastan), the now-in-build Canberra class LHDs and Hobart class AWDs, and purchases like HMAS Choules.  And while the Collins class had their issues early on, they are a six boat fleet that (crew shortages aside) do provide a capability that the Upholder class seems yet to deliver.

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 02:55:58 »
Add New Zealand's forces to Old Sweats post .

A bit of trivia to indicate how early in the war the ANZAC forces were deployed is this tidbit:

HMNZS Achilles (pennant number 70) was a Leander class light cruiser which served with the Royal New Zealand Navy in World War II. She became famous for her part in the Battle of the River Plate, alongside HMS Ajax and HMS Exeter.

Achilles was originally built for the Royal Navy, she was commissioned as HMS Achilles on 10 October 1933. She would serve with the Royal Navy's New Zealand Division from 31 March 1937 up to the creation of the Royal New Zealand Navy, into which she was transferred in September 1941 and renamed HMNZS Achilles. Her crew was approximately 60% from New Zealand.

Achilles played herself in the film The Battle of the River Plate (U.S. title: Pursuit of the Graf Spee) in 1956. One of the very few times,  that a ship "stared" as herself in a movie!

HMS Cumberland also played herself, but only in the same minor part as she actually did during the battle.

A fair number of New Zealander's were members of the LRDG.

Sorry for the highjack.

The Battle of the River Plate is a fantastic film, and it does make mention of the Kiwis.  Add to the list of ships that have played themselves, HMS Amethyst in Yangtse Incident: The story of HMS Amethyst.
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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2012, 00:22:06 »
Dimsum,

The reason they don't get an HHT is due to the Defence Housing Authority (DHA) being a gazillion times better than what we have with CHFA!! DHA is a system the CF should seriously consider, for locations that have a strong civilian housing market; it's essentially privately owned houses that are leased to DHA for use by military families (it's also a great investment for home owners).

Housing through DHA is also subsidized, one of the guys I work with has a 2 bedroom apartment through DHA that is right on the beach, but only pays $800/month (I know that sounds expensive from a Canadian perspective, but that's cheap here, the same style apartment in the same complex, rented privately is going for $1650/month!). Because of this, most of the guys I work with rent through DHA, then have one or two investment properties, some of which are leased out to DHA!

I've witnessed the problems the posting lengths cause within the Chinook community; the guys are posted in for 3 years but the posting starts before they even do there Chinook conversion, so for the first year they're useless to us. They end up getting two good years on sqn, then off to another unit and aircraft! This is starting to change, but it's the Army mentality, you can't spend 4 years in one unit, you need to go do your non-corps posting!

RDBZ,

I didn't want my comments to come off as if I was bad-mouthing the ADF, far from, they are an excellent organization and there are a lot of things we could learn from them. I don't know enough about our Navy to make a fair comparison, but from a numbers/types comparison the RAN seems superior to the RCN. My impression of the ADF/Australia is that the RAN is considered more important then we in the CF/Canada consider the RCN. I think this comes from Australia being a more ocean based culture (if that makes any sense), they identify more with the RAN than I believe we do with the RCN.

I'm very interested to see how the Canberra class does; there have been some very questionable decisions made in that project, such as having only 30 bunks for AVN/AVS techs! When the Tigers go on exercise with the Army (which has only happened twice since the Tigers came on line in 07) they usually take 4 aircraft and about 65 techs! Now add the MRH-90 (if it ever goes operational with the Army (that's a thread in and of itself!)) and the CH-47's and they're going to need a lot more than 30 bunks!!

I would love to see the CF funded to the same level as the ADF; however with the funding the ADF has, they should be able to field a more capable military than they currently are.

Cheers

Online Dimsum

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2012, 01:49:59 »
*hijack*

That's interesting about the DHA concept; when I talked to my co-workers they never brought it up (not that it would have mattered anyway) and none of them rent through DHA as far as I can tell.  Maybe it's just certain locations? 

*/hijack*
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Offline RDBZ

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2012, 02:54:43 »


I'm very interested to see how the Canberra class does; there have been some very questionable decisions made in that project, such as having only 30 bunks for AVN/AVS techs! When the Tigers go on exercise with the Army (which has only happened twice since the Tigers came on line in 07) they usually take 4 aircraft and about 65 techs! Now add the MRH-90 (if it ever goes operational with the Army (that's a thread in and of itself!)) and the CH-47's and they're going to need a lot more than 30 bunks!!

I would love to see the CF funded to the same level as the ADF; however with the funding the ADF has, they should be able to field a more capable military than they currently are.

Cheers

I suspect that with bunking for around 1,000 non-ship's crew, they should be able to sort out suitable accommodation arrangements  when the Canberras are deployed.   ;)

As for Tiger and NH-90, I don't think anyone would argue that they are examples of well run programs.  But as all users of those platforms seem to reporting the same issues, I'm a little less ready to lable them an Army Aviation problem.  The subsequent selection of the MH-60R over the NH-90 NFH seemed a pretty clear statement of the ADF's views.  To be fair to Eurocopter and NH Industries though, the now loved Blackhawks had some severe availability issues early in their career, and there is a remediation plan to bring all the NH-90s to a common, final configuration once that has been developed.

Could the ADF do better?  Of course.  But  for a lot of capabilities they have, what are the  comparative benchmarks?  Apart from the RAN only the JMSDF has an operational fleet of large diesel electric submarines operating across the Pacific (and Indian Ocean).  Its very early days for Wedgetail with the RAAF, SKAF and Turkey.   Who else has a capability like JORN?

« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 03:14:09 by RDBZ »

Offline Get Nautical

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2012, 06:58:07 »
Isn't Guam close enough for the US, they already have (or had) a base in Okinawa one that they have held since WWII. If I was the average Australian, I wouldn't be to crazy about them moving in.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 07:06:54 by Get Nautical »
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Offline GAP

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Re: "Australian Defence Spending Puts Canada to Shame"
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2012, 07:32:34 »
They are being pressured to move out of Okinawa. They just signed a 2 part agreement with Japan. Part 1 involves removing troops, while Part 2 is about moving the air base to a less congested area further north. The people in the less congested area further north......disagreed.
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