Topic: RCMP mbrs in the Militia

[noneck]

Can anyone out there tell me why a member of the RCMP cannot serve in the primary reserves? I know we could go on about a conflict of interest....But then why can Municipal police officers then serve? If it‘s because the RCMP is federal then why can customs and corrections officers still join. I believe that it is an antiquated rule that would need nothing more than a MOU between unit CO and Detachment OIC to determine that during time of need the RCMP job would come first. We all know that it needs an Act of Parliament to activate and call up the militia.    Anyway does anyone out there have an idea of how to tackle this problem? In this period of poor recruiting wouldn‘t it be a prudent move to recruit individuals that have already passed a security screening ,are of good character as well as disciplinedand and are in good physical condition. Thanks your comments would be appreciated.

[garb811]

A read of the RCMP Act shows that this isn‘t specifically ruled out but it does give the Commissioner the authority to institute other rules and regulations "for the organization, training, conduct, performance of duties, discipline, efficiency, administration or good government of the Force."

Para 4 of the Act also states, "The Force may be employed in such places within or outside Canada as the Governor in Council prescribes." which tells you something.

Para 18 d reads "to perform such other duties and functions as are prescribed by the Governor in Council or the Commissioner."  They too, are subject to being "called up" for duty.

Then there is Section 12.1 which states "Every member who has contravened, is found contravening or is suspected of contravening the Code of Conduct or an Act of Parliament or of the legislature of a province may be suspended from duty by the Commissioner."  Get charged under the Code of Service Discipline and get suspended. Of course, reading this you could also be suspended for being give a provincial traffic ticket.  Not sure how Provincial Police Acts deal with this.

Lets not even get into the issue of Commissions.

My take on it is the RCMP are already burdened with obligations that other police forces and agencies aren‘t.  From my take on it, it‘s para 18d that is really the issue though since it would be a dogs breakfast if both the RCMP and the members Militia unit would be called up at the same time, no matter what MOU was in place beforehand.

Having said all of that, the RCMP
now permits it‘s members to join the Cadet Instructor Cadre.  Of course, there really isn‘t much worry that these guys will ever be called up.

[noneck]

Thanks for taking  the time to respond. I am considering writing to the MND for permission to rejoin .Presently I am on the SHR, I was looking at the CIC route, however I don‘t think I am readyfor that. It wouldn‘t be the same as leading a section in advance to contact or going on concentrations. I did call the Ombudsman‘s office and they suggested that I try the MND route first and carbon copy all correspondance to them.The only other solution, is to badger my  Bn CO to look the other way and plead ignorance to my present occupation. Since I am on the SHR it wouldn‘t involve CFRC in order to raise me back on strength. I do know that here in the Lower Mainland of BC there are several RCMP members serving in Militia units as both officers and NCO‘s. It would be interesting to hear from some of them.

Cabar Feidh

[garb811]

Heh, I‘d been thinking that this was a RCMP prohibition on your enrolling, not a CF one yet there it is in QR&O 6.01(2) "the following persons shall not be enrolled in the Canadian Forces: (a) a member of any other of Her Majesty’s forces, or of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police".

QR&O 6.01(5) "A member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police may be enrolled in the Cadet Instructor Cadre. (4 August 1998)"

And the note to this:
"A member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police enrolled in the Cadet Instructor Cadre is not eligible for transfer to another sub-component of the Reserve Force."

Unfortunately it doesn‘t give a detailed explanation about why this is, http://www.dnd.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol1/tofc06_e.asp  is the link if you want to read it over yourself.

Given the level of detail they have gone to in this QR&O, I don‘t think a letter to the MND is going to help you out and I believe the Bn CO would be very unwise if he were to look the other way as it places both of you in a bad situation when it does come to light.  If there are RCMP officers out there doing this on the QT I hope they realize that they are putting both "careers" on the line to do this.

Thinking further it appears that this order is essentially equating the RCMP as one of Her Majesty‘s Forces.  Given that the RCMP formed all of the Provost Corps in WWI and #1 Provost Coy in WWII this is quite possible.  I‘m not sure of the exact history but is it possible these folks didn‘t need to enroll to go overseas?  Perhaps a Q for one of our history boffins to research.

[Master Blaster]

As this thread is very specific and has some very ‘black and white‘ responses (ie: QR&O‘s) I thought that I‘d throw my $.0002 (US) in anyway.

I was training at the Depot in Dwyer Hill (prior to the Secret Squirrels taking over) and the subject of Militia training came up.  The general consensus was that it was not possible for a Horseman to join as it would be like drawing two paychecks from the same employer (both federal agencies) but then the item of federal Corrections officers came up and we were informed that they form a separate group within the federal emplyoyment organization as they are union represented.  As Horsemen are not represented by a union (exactly) this may be the one factor that exempts them from miliary service.

There are several OPP, Metro, Peel, Durham and numerous municipal police officers that serve as part time citizen-soldiers and most of them handle their dual role quite well.  The burden seems primarily to fall on the spouse and families that never see the members because of some very varied hours and schedules.  For a young, single Law Enforcement Officer that wishes to expand their scope of experience, there‘s nothing that beats the Primary Reserve.  For almost anyone else, it is the cause of breakups, divorces and career choices that may result in disasterous consequences.

All the Best

Dileas Gu Brath

[russm]

In my own experience, police officers don‘t make the best Reserve soldiers anyway for the simple reason that they generally cannot commit sufficient time to be viable. I‘ve encountered some excellent soldiers who have become police officers...all ex-Reg force who went into the Reserves and also began life as a cop. Even cops with a fair bit of TI as police officers and consequently greater flexibility regarding shifts, etc., have a hard time committing. And "grey" attenders are worse than non-attenders IMO. In any case, I have yet to see the arrangement work out with any genuine degree of satisfaction to the Unit.

It‘s a shame, because some of them are good soldiers. But the fact remains that you can be the best soldier in the world, but if you don‘t show up, you‘re no good to anyone!

[Mud Crawler]

And there is the police training wich teaches not to kill unless really needed wich contradicts the army‘s training.Maybe russm can give us his point of view on this since i believe he had experience in training with police officers.Also talking about divorce and all te burdens falling on the wife and all, anyone married here who could tell  me what it is like having a family and being in the CF.If one could talk about going oversea and being married, i would appreciate.

thx a lot,
Marc

[Doug]

It‘s a lot of hard work!  EVERYONE has some sort of marital problems when a tour comes around, there‘s no way around it.  I‘ve seen a lot of people break up before and after tours.  My daughter understands a little, but it‘s hard on her when I go away.  My wife is ok, but she still finds it hard, it doesent help that she‘s pregnant either.  I leave on Wednesday for another tour and everyday gets harder.  you worry about them when you‘re away, you try to do a million things for them before you go, you wonder how everything will be when you get back in 6 months.

[PteJoe]

Hey

I was looking at the picture of my cousin who‘s getting high in rank of RCMP, don‘t see him often, but are their ranks similar to the Army? If it‘s the same as the little message Icon I guess he‘s a Warrant officer for them

[recceguy]

Here‘s the long and short of it, without all the section and subsection stuff. Municipal cops can be in the reserve. RCMP cannot because they are an armed force that belongs to the federal government, which can be called up. Customs guys and municipal cops aren‘t. Therefore, in case of mobilization the, RCMP would be in a "conflict of interest" as to who he belongs to. Rather than deal with it when the time comes the govm‘t has been proactive and disallowed the belonging to both the RCMP and DND at the same time. As an aside, if a military person, joins the RCMP he relinqueshes all rank and starts at the bottom. This includes officers, who must resign their commission.

[noneck]

I hear that the CF policy may be about to change on the issue of RCMP mbrs in the MO. I say bring it on, there are at least 20 mbrs I know of personally that will be first in line at the CFRC.

[Brad Sallows]

I too would like to see change.  We have "lost" some quality people to the RCMP.  What‘s the worry - in time of crisis, which service has first call?  I suppose the crisis would have to be very large if the government were considering introducing the dilemma by placing reservists on active service on an involuntary basis.  If we can make policy and procurement decisions based on assumptions that a big war is unlikely, then we must accept the likelihood of having to actually make the RCMP-vs-CF choice is vanishingly small and can probably be resolved by intelligent people on a case-by-case basis.  Meanwhile, a simple regulatory caveat that RCMP members may not go on active service with the CF without permission from someone suitable in the RCMP should suffice.

[CH1]

THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION IS EASY AND DEALS WITH HISTORY.  THE RCMP FORMERLY NWMP WAS RAISED AS A PARAMILITARY FORCE TO DO BATTLE WITH RIEL.  THE FORCE IS STILL ON THE BOOKS AS A PARAMILITARY UNIT.  UP UNTIL SOMEWHERE IN TH 70's, WE USED TO DO "LATERAL" TRANSFERS BETWEEN THE FORCES & RCMP AND OTHER FED DEPARTMENTS.  THIS WAS KILLED IN THE 70's DUE IN PART TO PENSION AND SENIORITY PROBLEMS.

[recceguy]

Stop yelling

[X Royal]

CH1: If you don't know all capital letters means yelling on this forum. FYI

 Best Wishes

[CH1]

Sorry guys. Ignorance on my part! I stand gratefully corrected.  old hands used to trigger & tty! Not this confounded abaCUSS.

[Q 1]

The reason RCMP cannot join the mo, but city police etc. can is because technically the RCMP is considered a dragoon Regiment on the books of the Cf. therefore you cannot serve in 2 regiments at the same time and join the mo.

[recceguy]

The reason RCMP cannot join the mo, but city police etc. can is because technically the RCMP is considered a dragoon Regiment on the books of the Cf. therefore you cannot serve in 2 regiments at the same time and join the mo.

Don't know where you guys get this stuff. Close but no cigar. They have NO connection to the CF. Read the rest of the thread.

[Q 1]

Sigh.... check this out then if your so smart
     
                 www.Regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/cav/rcmp.htm

[Aquilus]

Look at the title of the page, Land Forces of Britain, the Empire and Commonwealth. Not part of the CF and not an official gov. web page. Also, they have had units sent overseas during times of war, which doesn't equate to being part of the CF.
1921     RCMP designated a "dragoon regiment"
When did the CF become the CF? yeah.
Cheers.

[Love793]

Sigh.... check this out then if your so smart
        
                          www.Regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/cav/rcmp.htm

I do believe he was referring to the current Canadian Forces/RCMP relationship.

They are a armed force, raised for His/Her majesty by Canada (Battle honours and all).  This is probably the reason for not allowing them as Reg or PRes members.  It probably falls somewhere in realm of a guy being Reg and Reserve at the same time.

[Perry]

To my knowledge the RCMP left the order of march in battle sometime in the late 60's

[recceguy]

Sigh.... check this out then if your so smart
 
 www.Regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/cav/rcmp.htm

Watch the sarcasm there bud...and check your facts.
They have no current connection with the Canadian Armed Forces. They are another stand alone force of the Government.

Taken from the official RCMP web site, you'll notice they are responsible to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness (currently the Deputy PM, IIRC), not the Minister of National Defence.

"The Royal Canadian Mounted Police is organized under the authority of the RCMP Act. In accordance with the Act, it is headed by the Commissioner, who, under the direction of the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada, has the control and management of the Force and all matters connected therewith."

[HollywoodHitman]

To all thinking about rejoining should the legislation change regarding RCMP in the Reserves.....Be proactive in your verification of former service. Obtain certified copies of your military docs asap. I have recently heard of waiting times of up to 3 years to verify your former military service. That can throw a real wrench in your bid to re-join. SRR- I'm not sure you'll have that problem as your records are more than likely to be maintained at your former Bde HQ.

TM

[Meridian]

Does it have anything to do with postings? (Shot in the dark)

IF I recall conversations with RCMP friends, they said they can be posted prettymuch anywhere in CAnada, much like the military (although  much less frequenetly). If this is the case, then would it not create undue difficulty on the PRes (moving units, moving to remote areas with no military presence)...

Also... Isn't this sorta like having someone working as a paramedic and a cop?  If the shtf and everyone gets called out to an emergency, including those off shift... what do you show up as? cop with a stethoscope?