Topic: Fallout Shelters

[ToRN]

I was watching a program on Television, and they were talking about the fallout shelters that were quote unquote 'secretly' built during the cold war, and then abbandoned in the early 90s.

My question is this:

               Would there be a possible use for these facilities/properties by the CF if it were to be turned over to the CF?

From my understanding, the one that was the worst kept secret, was about 40km from Ottawa, in Carp, Ontario, and was built to support some 500 officials, politicians, and civilians (all of whom were selected specificaly for one reason or another).

Anyone who knows anything about these shelters, let me know, I am interested in discovering the potential of these sites.

Cheers,
Nicholas P. Cressman

[gun plumber]

I know they use the bunker in Borden(The Definbunker)as a cadet area HQ and transient quaters(top level)and the lower levels is used by the Comms for something(secret squirell stuff no doubt!)

[ToRN]

hmm, I thought the one in Carp was nicknamed the Deifenbunker, but I could be wrong.

that's good that they are at least using the space for something.

[GrimRX]

hmm, I thought the one in Carp was nicknamed the Deifenbunker, but I could be wrong.

that's good that they are at least using the space for something.

I believe that the entire line of bunkers that was built were called "Deifenbunkers."

[Shec]

The Diefenbunker in Carp is a now a Cold War museum:

http://www.diefenbunker.ca/

[pbi]

These sites were built by DND as National Survival facilities to permit regional military commanders and key Provincial/Federal govt agencies to survive a nuclear strike. The civvy govts were terrified to have anything to do with them as the idea of "we get to live-you peons fry" was political dynamite. I was told by the staff of the Shilo Provincial Warning Centre (as they ended up being called) that in its entire history, the Govt of Manitoba had never held an exercise in the facility.

With the fall of the USSR and the perceived decline in threat levels, these facilities were gradually sold off by DND, with the one in Borden being (I think..) the last one in DND hands.

Ironically, the planning and preparation for Op ABACUS in LFCA revealed the need for a secure, survivable, self-sufficient ops centre: we no longer had one as the military had gradually abandoned the idea. We seriously considered activating the "Hole" in Borden but in the end we fitted out a self-sufficient HQ over at the old Downsview site. Interestingly, the new LFCA HQ has an auxiliary power system and an eating facility: two things we identified as necessary to run an Ops HQ 24/7: both of which were features of the PWCs.

So, it's very unlikely that the Govt would now turn around and buy them back for DND: we dumped them in the first place. Ironic. Cheers.

[E.R. Campbell]

Bunkers were a big deal back in the '50s and '60s.

Back in the '80s we had no further (reasonable) use for them as either emergency government or telecomm sites.   As structures they had, as I recall, some distinct maintenance cost advantages over convention, above ground buildings.   There was the big one a Carp* and several (five?) in places from Comox, BC to Debert Nova Scotia â “ also, I think, at Penhold, AB, Borden, ON, ValCarteir, QC.

They morphed over the years into fairly modern, efficient (cost effective, anyway) telcomm centres â “ the signals people appeared to hate them but we, the plans and requirements staffs, who were always on the lookout for money, were loath to replace them and the construction engineers agreed with us.

Whatever happened to them all?   Are the ones in e.g. Borden still there?   They were supposed to be hard to destroy.

----------

* Trivia which I hope I have remembered correctly.   There was a teletype message relay machine in Carp which was the very first working computer in the Canadian Forces -   Army, back then.   It was full of vacuum tubes - heat dissipation was a real problem, I guess.  Anyway it predated SAGE/BUIC by several years.  It was one of a pair; the other was landing aircraft in the UK as the world's first automated airport terminal control (I hope that's the right phrase) system.   Most senior people, including the CDS and cabinet ministers, were to sleep two to a room, on typical army barrack room bunk beds.   The PM, GG and, oddly enough, Governor of the Bank of Canada got single rooms.

[ToRN]

Just wanted to add, that in the selection process for who got in to the shelters, one specific group that was excluded in it's entirity, was 'her magisty's loyal opposition', I guess the ruling party is the only one who counts

[CDN Aviator]

The bunker in Valcartier is used as transit quarters.  At least it used to be , stayed in it a few times going from Pet to gagetown for exercises !!!  Got lost in it on a few occasions !!

[PPCLI Guy]

IIRC, the one in Shilo has been filled with water, and is used for diving...

[a Sig Op]

There's a bunker in shilo?

[OLD F of S]

     As a junior tech I worked on that first computer, the tubes were mostly diodes and triodes
and maint consisted of testing each tube. By the time you finished the last tube it was time
to start at the first tube again.

[pbi]

There is a bunker in Shilo but as PPCLI Guy states it was flooded (last year?) as "surplus to requirements". During OP ASSISTANCE (the Red River Flood in 97) our battaion staged from Wainwright to Altona via the Shilo site, and we were put up in the Hole: quite comfortable and well equipped, I thought, just as ROJ describes.

The bunkers were located within a couple of  hours of driving time of each Provincial Capital and of Ottawa, in order to be clear of the blast and initial radiation effects that were expected to occur in all of our major cities. The idea was that the regional military commander and key staff, as well as key Govt agencies, would evac to the bunker, survive the initiall strike, then coord the recovery operations or deal with any subsequent hostile actions.

When I first visited the Shilo Hole as a young officer attending Bde Officer Study in the mid 80's, we were given a tour by the staff (two Arty Sgts on retirement posting, IIRC...) It was obviously a backwater. Everything was just as it had orginally been laid out, but never really used as planned. They showed us the teletype machine mentioned earlier (it was still in use...) it was a vacuum tube and enamelled-steel monster that thumped and chattered and spat out ticker tape. Quite something. The strike maps of the city of Winnipeg were so out of date they were 1950's surveys.

IMHO today we need survivable HQs and a robust, wide bandwidth national military voice/data link totally independent of the civvy side so that in emergency (any emergency....) we can continue to function. For too long we have let our HQs and bases be vulnerable to disruption of power and telecomms. Maybe the Holes weren't such bad ideas? Cheers.

[PPCLI Guy]

For too long we have let our HQs and bases be vulnerable to disruption of power and telecomms.

Uhuh.  During the TO blackout, we discovered that our shiny new building had great backup generators...that weren't connected to little things like the AOC!  It is all sorted now.  When the power was cut, eventually all of the cell phones started dying.  I was in Pet, and ended up as HQ Fwd, from a s-bag on the Mattawa.  Not fun.

[a Sig Op]

There's an extremely large mound that looks like there might be either a bunker or a fuel storage tank of some sort buried beneath behind the old artillery museum in shilo... other then that, I really can't imagine where the bunker would be, though I'm sure there are doubtlessly places on the base I haven't been.

Is it possible to give some sort of land-mark reference with regards to the location? As my curiosity has really been piqued here...

[a Sig Op]

And regarding a national communications link in case of emergency, while we no longer maintain a fixed/hardened network, we in the reserves sigs world are tasked with providing it in a mobile capacity.

[pbi]

Sounds familiar. When we were planning for ABACUS, LFCA was located in the civvy office buildng up on Yonge at Finch. It was almost completely non-survivable as well as being difficult to secure. We moved over to the old Base HQ at the Downsview site (already undergoing final close-out at that time as part of the sell-off of the old base). We built an ops centre in the old conference room and took over the other facilities for planning, briefing, etc. The Siggies built us a line/rad/SAT comms network,(God Bless the Jimmies!!, especially the CommRes without whom there would have been no emergency comms to our subordinate HQs) and we brought in a big diesel (sea-container type) to run the entire building. It was quite a bit of work but IMHO we were ready. In our AAR from ABACUS we identified that if the civvies will ever rely upon us in extremis, we must be op capable, not freezing and stumbling about in the dark,unable to communicate, no better off than Joe civvy down the street. Cheers.

[speed400m]

I have toured the Diefenbunker it was kinds spooky keeping in mind, what its purpose was for.  When I was there my guide told me that, when they were deciding to sell it they had had almost sold it too the hell angles with out knowing.  Also she told me stories about other bunkers being used for growing dope.  lol,  i could just seem the police trying to get into the place once use by the bikers.  lol

Before walking in there I expected more, to me it's seemed like a weak solution for a fallout shelter.  I mean it was only like about 20 feet in the ground. 

[a Sig Op]

So yes to the mound behind the old artillery museum?

[yammit]

Can someone confirm the one in Shilo was filled in with H2O and is used for diving?  That'd be a sweet thing to do next time I'm there...

I thought it had been destroyed - because the mound that it used to be is currently flat.  It was my understanding they used a LOT of explosives to ensure it was destroyed...

[Zoomie]

The BC bunker is located on DND property in Nanaimo (1.5 hours north of Victoria) not Comox.  It has apparently been "decommissioned" <whatever that means>.  A google search found nothing on the subject.  I imagine that they simply welded shut all access points and left it as is.

[Morpheus32]

The bunker in Shilo had the doors removed, the entranced bulldozed and filled in.   Now it is just a mound with no access to it.   Most items were moved from within and disposed of or junked.   It is gone.  

Jeff

[Herc]

In addition to the BC bunker Zoomie mentioned in Nanaimo, there was/is another just outside of Nanoose Bay.   As you drove on the highway heading towards Parksville and climbed the small hill after the Petro-Can there was an antenna farm/transmitter site on the right hand side of the highway.   There was a bunker here as well.   It was utilized mainly for communications and may still be in service.   Does anyone know?

I spent a couple of months in the bunker in Nanaimo and it was very strange.   Not knowing what the weather was like outsiide.   Night became day and vice versa.   The food was alright but we seldom ate in the bunker.   Most meals were eaten at the camp mess hall.   We had a pitch and putt set up on the roof/grass of the bunker and used different vents, etc as hole markers.   I remember one particular night of partying down at the Tally Ho or some other fine Nanaimo establishment and coming back and putting a real estate for sale sign on top of the bunker at the entrance.   Maybe they should have sold it?

Something I vividly remember about the Provincial Warning Centres were the maps on the walls showing fallout patterns and blast areas of differenct nuclear weapon yields.   Very haunting.   I could never figure out why they didn't build the bunker in Victoria were the Provincial government is located.   Any insight?

I remember seeing some of the tubes in the transmitters back in the early eighties.   I hope they've been changed to solid state at least by now.

[garb811]

As previously stated, the bunkers were built outside the immediate effects zones of any weapons targeted at the cities.   The theory being, I guess, that a second weapon wouldn't be wasted targetting the bunker which were designed to withstand pretty much anything but a direct hit, although most of the provincial bunkers weren't constructed to protect from the blast.

The original plan was to establish a minimum of two bunkers in each province for redundancy but this obviously didn't happen.   Alberta's was located in Penhold and during the disposal process a farmer was the only one who put a bid in, I think it was in the neighbourhood of $100k, with his plan being to grow mushrooms in it...this was the one which generated the concern about a OMG getting their hands on it and the deal never went through and the entire disposal process for those not on still active bases was re-evaluated.   A company also put in a bid to buy it for the legalized pot grow op but this never came about either and I'm pretty sure it's been flattened.

Aside from Carp, there was another bunker, called X bunker I believe, out by Perth which was designed as the Comms transmission site for Carp and they did a pretty major buried cabling job for those days to connect the two.   I dated a girl who had been posted to Carp back when they still assigned quarters there for the single folk.   Interesting tales of people who became trolls because they never ventured out...   I was there on visits while it was still operational and it was quite the place, knew most of the MPs posted there at the time as well but by that point nobody was allowed to have quarters there although the kitchen was still operational and they did, on occasion, have people in overnight.   If you're ever in Ottawa and you get the chance, I highly recommend the short drive to Carp for the tour.   They've got a good story about the Soviet Defence attache coming out for a look since it was just within their allowed radius of travel and they found out what was up because of newspaper coverage.  

[a Sig Op]

On a side note... Newfoundland never had a provincial bunker... they were going to build one, but it's construction was delayed, and then never occured...

The provincial warning centre was initially located in (Believe it or not) an abandoned rubber boot factory (So chosen because it was far enough away from the capital, and the walls were heavy enough concrete that it would have been able to survive a nuclear attack...

The warning centre was later moved into the HQ building in CFS St. John's (The same building where the battle of the atlantic was planned).

Permenent facilities were constructed for the warning centre, an above ground concrete building, but never occupied because of the end of the cold war.