Topic: All eyes on Ignatieff

[E.R. Campbell]

My, personal, sense is that Martin has blotted his copy book.   The dyed in the wool Chrétienistas will never accept him â “ they see him as a turncoat and back-stabber.   Some, (many?) of the Martinis are proving to be summer soldiers and, as the Ignatieff 'candidacy' demonstrates, are already casting about for a new leader.

(Bear in mind, please, that unlike MacLeod, I have no links to the Liberal Party of Canada.   I have a few somewhat distant professional (occasionally collegial) relationships with a handful of people, including John Manley, who happen to be Liberals.   My circle of acquaintances does include some retired (and a few serving) bureaucrats who had (have) good insights into the Party and who, as we all do at our age, love to gossip â “ often somewhat mischievously.)

Some Liberals, and their civil service minders, are driven near to distraction by Martin's chronic inability to make a decision.

Martin is a classic example of Isaiah Berlin's hedgehog in his Fox vs. Hedgehog analogy.   (Ignatieff is Berlin's biographer â “ and a fine one, at that.)

Berlin, you may recall, characterized people as either foxes â “ with many, many ideas and interests, or hedgehogs â “ with just one big idea.

Trudeau was the prototypical hedgehog.   He had a very, very limited range of interests and went from disinterested to downright inept when forced to deal with the vast array of problems or issues which face a national leader: economics, defence, social services, foreign policy/strategy, agriculture, security, and so on.   His one big idea was 'Québec/anti-nationalism' and, in my opinion, he was intellectually ill-equipped to deal with that and, consequently, he screwed it up, too.

Most good leaders, it seems to me, are foxes, but many not so good leaders are ill-disciplined foxes â “ they have a wide range of interests but they are unable (unwilling) to focus on the ones that matter.   In my time St. Laurent, Pearson, Mulroney, Chrétien and Martin were all foxes but only St. Laurent, Mulroney and Chrétien were well disciplined foxes.   Ignatieff is a fox, too, and, on the evidence to date â “ unlike Trudeau Ignatieff does have a resumé with real accomplishments in the real, wide world â “ he may be an interesting challenger.
 
Edit: fixed highlight and a stupid bloody auto correct spelling error - it's dyed in the wool, not died in the wool - I hate Bill Gates!

[Infanteer]

(He also will encounter uneasiness in the party, especially in its pink Trudeauesque wing, over his support for the U.S. invasion of Iraq â “ he argues that the Iraqis deserved freedom from Saddam Hussein â “ and there is no consensus on whether he sits on the left or the right of the party on social and fiscal issues.)

This is why Ignatieff would interest me in voting Red - I'm sure he would focus outward (a la St Laurent) rather than inward.

My, personal, sense is that Martin has blotted his copy book.   The died in the wool Chretienistas will never accept him - they see him as a turncoat and back-stabber.   Some, (many?) of the Martinis are proving to be summer soldiers and, as the Ignatieff "candidacy" demonstrates, are already casting about for a new leader.

Chretienistas and Martinis - we truly are a Banana Republic....

[Aden_Gatling]

Chretienistas and Martinis - we truly are a Banana Republic....

"Oh, Bananada ..."  :'(

[jmacleod]

Dr. Ignatieff has family links in Nova Scotia with the distinguished academic Grant family. He will not seek
a Nova Scotia seat howver, will focus on Toronto, with many of it's Liberal constituency organizations
dominated by homosexuals (Ignatieff is considered an expert on Human Rights). If he runs in Toronto
he will be selected and elected, but there are other potential leadership candidates out there, including
former Toronto MP Alan Rock (UN), Canadian Ambassador to US Frank McKenna, and possibly a duo
from Quebec. It is safe to assume that the next Liberal leader will not be from Quebec in any event.
Martin's tenure in fact is virtually over, he has not exhibited a degree of leadership anticipated and
is detested by the Chretien loyalists (Chretien is greatly admired in the rank and file of the Party
despite what the Toronto dominated Canadian media think). Dr Ignatieff will be, if he offers for the
leadership of the Party, a very strong candidate, who will dominate the focus of the media, in
particular the CBC. The Conservatives I would think will seek an equally strong leader from Ontario
-odd's on favourite if he offers, Hon John Tory MLA, Toronto Government of Ontario. My personal
opinion  (stand to be corrected) is that Hon Frank McKenna will not seek Liberal leadership. From
the perspective of this site, who of the "contenders" for national political leadership would be best
for the future of the Canadian military?  Macleod

[jmacleod]

Canadian Ambassador Hon Frank McKenna was quoted in the National Canadian media today that
he would not seek leadership of the Federal Liberal Party, would not be a leadership contender
- the general feeling in the Atlantic Canada wing of the Party is that if Ignatieff runs, he will
easily win - the real power base of the Party nationally is in Toronto, and Ontario - no longer
in Quebec and probably never will be again. Ambassador McKenna is a smart guy, a shrewd politicain
well connected, and if he says he will not run, I would think, knowing him well, he means exactly
what he says. The Federal Liberals under Martin anticipate a Liberal majority next year - why not.
MacLeod

[Thucydides]

I'm a little curious as to what sort of power base the good Dr. Ignatieff has within the Liberal Party. Come to think of it, Ms Stronich is now supposed by some in the Media to be in position to contend as a leader of the Liberals should Mr Dithers jump (or be pushed) out the window.

There is also the matter of the "Creitianistas", who are waiting the day they can exact vengence against the "Martinites". This is starting to read a bit like some sort of medieval melodrama, with the Prime Minister and Anti-Prime Minister in alternate 24 Sussex Drives sepatated by the Ottawa river excommunicating each other's followers.

jmacleod, since you seem to have an inside scoop on these things, please enlighten us as to how the Liberal Party does not implode with all these presumptive stresses within?

[jmacleod]

A "power base" will be created for Ignatieff by the Liberal insiders who have encouraged and appraoched
him to run - most will be from the Chretien people - some disgruntled members throughout the
country, and practical Liberals who are always focused on the future in any event. My mother's family
came to Nova Scotia in 1819, and later were among the founder's of the Liberal Party. We have had
two Federal MP's and a Senator in the family. Grew up in the era of NS Liberal Premier Angus L.MacDonald and the long serving Liberal governmemt of the time. Our associates in Ottawa and
the Atlantic region have close links with the Federal Liberal Party - necessary to deal in government
because all decisions affecting National Defence for instance are politically driven. We are consultants
in the technology and aerospace sector (thirty years) and have worked on many Crown Projects -
for instance, the decision to buy the F18-A "Hornet" from McDonnell-Douglas/Northrop was a
political decision made by PM Trudeau himself, ultimately. Martin made an enormous error in creating
Gomery, which has caused great resentment in the Party - a Party in which forgiveness is an unknown
quantity. Finally, the Liberal Party has the national media on side, there is  actually no significant
opposition media, which is what Stephen Harper has to contend with every day - Harper too will
vanish. MacLeod

[recceguy]

Martin made an enormous error in creating Gomery, which has caused great resentment in the Party - a Party in which forgiveness is an unknown.
quantity.  MacLeod

So are you saying the establishment of the Gomery inquiry was wrong and not required? If your party eats it's own for doing what is right for Canada, they're not fit to govern, period. Typically, looking out for their own interest, power and pension, without thought to the people that trusted them and got burned.

[jmacleod]

What I said is that there is resentment in the Liberal Party over Gomery - not a question of right
or wrong, Liberal focus is on politics, and a carefully orchestrated attack on the former PM which
was politically driven - no one can say, until Gomery reports, who and what was right or wrong
- but the resentment will remain. The late Dr. John Savage MD Premier of NS annoyed the
Nova Scotia Liberal Party and was forced to go on to a better life, because of political patronage
which he attempted to change - he is gone, Party goes on. The Liberal friendly media are not
going to give Gomery much focus in any event, and the public, as usual do not care. My question
is: who is going to defeat the mighty Liberals?  Macleod

[Aden_Gatling]

Liberal focus is on politics,

You've got my vote for the "understatement of the year" award.

[Acorn]

My question
is: who is going to defeat the mighty Liberals?   Macleod

Every Tyranny is brought down eventually. It may not even come to a vote.

Acorn

[the 48th regulator]

The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall.
Ernesto Che Guevara


You never know....

hasta siempre

tess

[Thucydides]

Unless I see 10,000 people standing on Parliament hill chanting for the government to resign (a "Maple Leaf Revolution"), I will not be holding my breath. Contemplating any "other" solution is pretty scary in so many ways, Acorn.

If Ignatieff really has what it takes to be a true leader for this nation, let's hear what, if anything, he has to say about the London bombings and Canada's role in WW IV.

[Wayne Coady(Banned)]

Unless I see 10,000 people standing on Parliament hill chanting for the government to resign (a "Maple Leaf Revolution"), I will not be holding my breath. Contemplating any "other" solution is pretty scary in so many ways, Acorn.

I disagree that contemplating any "other" solution is pretty scary.   We could have a quite "revolution", it is simple, clean and there would be no blood spilled. STOP GIVING THE POLITICAL PARTIES YOUR TIME, YOUR FINANCIAL SUPPORT , YOUR VOTE.

All parties are the same, they do what is best for the party, so do not support them, let the fools who enjoy being lied to and stolen from vote for them. Smarten up, if you really want to clean up the political sewers in Ottawa and in our provinces, push for an independent candidate who will truly represent your constituency who is free of the party shackles. Look into putting your own name on the ballot.

I tired of people pointing out that all parties are dirty and then refusing to do something about it, just do not support a party candidate , let them know when they come to your door looking for your approval to steal from you.

If you are not willing to   take to the streets, then keep it simple stupid, do not support a party, it is a pretty easy solution, maybe to easy.

[Thucydides]

I disagree that contemplating any "other" solution is pretty scary.  We could have a quite "revolution", it is simple, clean and there would be no blood spilled. STOP GIVING THE POLITICAL PARTIES YOUR TIME, YOUR FINANCIAL SUPPORT , YOUR VOTE.

That is what is happening today, and the politicians love it; we are IDIOTS in the ancient Greek sense of the word.

The "other" solution to having peaceful mass demonstrations is armed revolution, and I certainly don't want to be going there on either side of the barricades.

[Brad Sallows]

>Contemplating any "other" solution is pretty scary in so many ways, Acorn.

Revolution doesn't have to be bloody.  A simple campaign of industrial and infrastructure sabotage could probably bring Canada to its economic knees.  Governments would quickly run short of money for big ideas if they had to run around fixing broken toys.  For example, consider the economic losses of a longshoremans' strike - which doesn't actually involve very many workers - and then consider that there might be other ways to shut down a port.  I don't worry about foreign terrorism so much as domestic sabotage by people fed up with being told how to live and without sufficient conscience to restrain themselves.  I've seen plenty of senseless vandalism and whatnot in my time, so I'm not sure there's much restraint in people, or at least I'm not sure that it's particularly difficult for frustration to overcome self-restraint.  That's why I'm so tirelessly monotonous on decentralizing and downsizing government in Canada: so that all folks can find their cultural optimum in some part of Canada and live content there. The Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you - may very well be the linchpin of a civil society.  Unfortunately, Canada seems to be polarizing rather rapidly and the people currently in power aren't very gracious in victory.

[Wayne Coady(Banned)]

That is what is happening today, and the politicians love it; we are IDIOTS in the ancient Greek sense of the word.

The "other" solution to having peaceful mass demonstrations is armed revolution, and I certainly don't want to be going there on either side of the barricades.

I never said stop voting, I said stop supporting the candidate who represents a political party. To hold a demonstration is stupid,it is sure to turn into a riot and that is something these thieving politicans would really like.
So =a_majoor link, please vote, but just do not vote for a political party and put your time and money into yourself.

[Thucydides]

Like I mentioned in the other thread, political parties are people of like mind grouping together to pool resources for common ends. If there were no political parties, people would create them (and have, right back to the very first Democracy in ancient Athens). Since 99% of the candidates presenting themselves to you will represent a political party, witholding your time, resources and vote will only make the entrenched parties that much stronger; they have knocked you out of contention.

Are you saying you will run as an independent in the next (presumptive) election? Bravo Zulu to you! If you were in or near my riding I will be over in a heartbeat to help. My personal interest is municipal politics, so I hope you are available to support me....

[Wayne Coady(Banned)]

Majoor: I like the way municipal politics is set up, it is set up close to the people and candidates are independent , they are suppose to be free from political party structure and connection. With a little fine tuning they could be better improved. But that said municipal politics is better and closer to the people. BANG ON !!!!
Catch you later, off to a craft show.

[Thucydides]

Majoor: I like the way municipal politics is set up, it is set up close to the people and candidates are independent , they are suppose to be free from political party structure and connection. With a little fine tuning they could be better improved. But that said municipal politics is better and closer to the people. BANG ON !!!!
Catch you later, off to a craft show.

"Smiling Jack" Layton was always known as a full fledged socialist even as a Toronto City councillor, and our own City Council is the Liberal farm team (also with a few open socialists as well), so I wouldn't get to enamoured of the idea that there are no "party" affiliations either within municipal politics, or between levels of government (strange how our tax dollars are suddenly back in play from the Provincial Liberals and the Federal Liberals here in London [after taking their cut of the swag, of course]).

[E.R. Campbell]

... our own City Council is the Liberal farm team (also with a few open socialists as well), so I wouldn't get to enamoured of the idea that there are no "party" affiliations either within municipal politics, or between levels of government ...

Ditto here in Ottawa - our municipial politicians are pretty clearly identified as Liberals, N'Dippers and Conservatives but, in fairness, they do not, generally, run as such.
 

[Wayne Coady(Banned)]

Ditto here in Ottawa - our municipial politicians are pretty clearly identified as Liberals, N'Dippers and Conservatives but, in fairness, they do not, generally, run as such.
 

Once again we must stop supporting political parties. Yes councilors are associated with political parties this I know, but they are not suppose to drag their party affiliation with them , yet they do. Despite the fact that parties soil municipal government too, the bases on which municipal politics is suppose to function are well founded..

Our municipal candidates knock on our door looking for our support as independent candidates and if they are being guided by some political affiliation then maybe we should put a recall on them as well. Everyone on this form who posts on a political issue make it very clear that either one party or the other is not there to govern for the people put the party in power. I feel that the only way to correct this problem is to squash the party system, there is no other way to correct this mess.

[Thucydides]

"I SAY AGAIN"

Political parties exist because people with similar views join forces and resources to achieve their goals. This has been in play since ancient Athens, and even if the Liberal, MDP, Conservative and Marxist parties were all disbanded tomorrow, the next day new parties, groupings  or associations would arise.

Running as an independent "may" allow you to be elected, but then you might have some difficulties achieving your goals in parliament, since you, yourself will have to single handedly convince a majority of other sitting member to support you or your bill. (Of course, you will also be getting endless pitches to support someone else's bill as well.) BTW while you are doing all this, your constituents expect your attention, there are lots of committees you need to be on to shepard your bills through parliament, and you might even want to spend a bit of time preparing to be re-elected. Given all that, don't you think having a few friends and partners would help you achieve your goals more efficiently?

No, the problem isn't parties per se, rather it is the combination of personal gain taking precedence over the needs of the Demos, and the sheer inability or apathy of the Canadian public to band together and take effective action against those people who are abusing the system. Our system is rather weak too, BTW, so separating powers through a series of checks and balances (where have we heard that before?) should also be on the agenda.

Run, run hard, say what has to be said. I do hope you get elected, but I suspect you will find it an exercise in frustration if you attempt to work outside the party system. Nevertheless, good luck and Godspeed. If you need help in your campaign, PM me.

[Wayne Coady(Banned)]

"I SAY AGAIN"

Political parties exist because people with similar views join forces and resources to achieve their goals.

 

Now who wouldn't understand that !
The problem Mr. a_majoor, is people like yourself choose to point out the problems of "a" party that displeases you and of course then we have your oppsites, they point out the faults of your favorite party. It is people such as you who are stating and pointing out the pitfalls of the party system and people such as myself are saying well since all parties are crooks and liars, then do not support them.

Not all levels of "government" are set up on the party system, let me educate you, right here in Canada the 'Government" of the North West Territories is based on , now get this independent candidates and free of party corruption   So lets climb out of the dark ages and move forward into the future please. Not all countries are set up to "govern" from the top down , there are other that work from the bottom up. Switzerland   is one such country, consensus government.

[Infanteer]

There you go Arthur, you've been educated....