Author Topic: Gender & the CF; Women in Combat Arms, Infantry, Special Forces & Battle  (Read 84769 times)

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Offline GAP

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The structure of a Man body and a woman body is quite different. If you're are assigning the same job to a female soldier it's quite unfair. It doesn't mean that I am against of woman's participation in army. Woman can join army but there role in army can't be the same which is male soldier doing.

  RTFO :rofl:   
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Offline daftandbarmy

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The structure of a Man body and a woman body is quite different. If you're are assigning the same job to a female soldier it's quite unfair. It doesn't mean that I am against of woman's participation in army. Woman can join army but there role in army can't be the same which is male soldier doing.

Wrong:

"Life was difficult and precarious for both sexes in nomadic Indian tribes, and other commentators felt that the women did not question their role which was essential for survival. However, it did not accord with European notions of femininity for women for women to be strong. The Hudson's Bay Company men found the unladylike strength of Chipewayan women particularly astonishing. On one occasion David Thompson sent one of his strongest men to help a Chipewyan woman who was hauling a heavy sled; to the man's surprise, it took all his strength to budge the load. The Chipewayan themselves took the superior strength of women for granted. As a famous chief Matonabbee declared, "Women... were made for labour; one of them can carry, or haul, as much as two men can do." Samuel Hearne perceived that the Chipewayan  evaluated women by different criteria than did the European. Physical prowess and economic skill took precedence over delicate features:

Ask a Northern Indian, what is beauty? he will answer, a broad flat face, small eyes, high cheek-bones.. a low forehead, a large broad chin, a clumsy hook-nose, a tawny hide, and breasts hanging down to the belt. Those beauties were greatly heightened, or at least rendered more valuable, when the possessor is capable of dressing all kinds of skins, converting them into the different parts of their clothing, and all to carry eight or ten stone in Summer, or haul a much greater weight in Winter."

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~goudied/a_la_facon_du_pays.html
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Offline recceguy

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The structure of a Man body and a woman body is quite different. If you're are assigning the same job to a female soldier it's quite unfair. It doesn't mean that I am against of woman's participation in army. Woman can join army but there role in army can't be the same which is male soldier doing.

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Offline Technoviking

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I'm going to go against the grain here, so please bear with me.


When the olympics hold competitions that are not qualified by gender, and men and women do equally well in all competitions, then I'll believe it that men and women are physically the same.  (Obscure native North American tribes notwithstanding).

Having said that, a few hundred years ago the great equalizer was invented: the firearm.  No longer do infantryman have to be club-wielding brutes, whose effectiveness is guaged by how well they can wield those clubs.  (And swords, etc).  Although infantrymen need to be physically fit, they don't have to be physically strong in the sense that is often portrayed.  So long as they can carry their own kit to survive, plus carry some extra stuff, and then hold, aim and fire a rifle effectively, that person is going to do pretty well.  Yes, the physical fitness standards for infantry are higher than the rest (or at least, they ought to be),  but they are not so high that they would preclude women from attaining those heights.

The real "resistance" by many out there is to the psychological integration of men and women in such situations, where sometimes instinct can cause men to revert to "protectors" of women.  But as far as physical fitness levels (troll notwithstanding), aren't such that only a select few can make it.

Offline ArmyVern

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I'm going to go against the grain here, so please bear with me.
...

Well put, but that's not going against the grain.

99.99% of us are well aware that males and females are not physically the same. 99.99% of us are also aware that the physical differences do not mean that no females can do "a historically traditional males" job, but just that fewer are able to do so.

Those who are willing and able to do so, should be allowed to do so. That goes for either sex.

Those .01% who have "psychological" issues with females who are able to do the job actually doing so, have their own issues to deal with because it's their own personal problem to deal with  ... not the females.

You'll never catch me arguing that ALL females COULD be employed as infanteers for example, but you won't catch me saying that about all men either. But, if they are willing, then they should be allowed to try. And, if in trying, are found to be physically capable and able, then they along with the men found capable and able should carry on as per normal. If not, then I hope the door doesn't slam either their female or male *** on their way out.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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I wish there was some way to put the last two comments, Technoviking's and Vern's, in a separate "sticky" to which everyone would be referred every time this silly question is asked.

Great posts, folks!  :salute:
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Offline Springroll

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You'll never catch me arguing that ALL females COULD be employed as infanteers for example, but you won't catch me saying that about all men either. But, if they are willing, then they should be allowed to try. And, if in trying, are found to be physically capable and able, then they along with the men found capable and able should carry on as per normal. If not, then I hope the door doesn't slam either their female or male *** on their way out.

Amen!! This is a fantastic post and echo's my thoughts and feelings as well.
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Offline cupper

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Here is a shining example of a woman who can perform her duties in combat just as well as a man. Unfortunately she cannot hold a combat position in the US Army.

The powers that be still do not believe that women should be placed in combat roles. Even though they have been in combat roles by circumstances since 2003, if not earlier.

http://www2.insidenova.com/news/2012/mar/10/dale-city-woman-honored-saving-lives-iraq-ar-1755837/


Dale City woman honored for saving lives in Iraq

Sgt. Monica Beltran doesn’t re­ally like to be reminded about all she has accomplished in her Na­tional Guard career. She’d much prefer that others be recognized for what they’ve done.

But facts can be pesky things. And the facts are these: Beltran, 26, of Dale City, is the second most decorated female soldier in the entire National Guard and is the first women to ever receive a Purple Heart and Bronze Star with Valor.

She received the honors for ac­tions during a firefight in Iraq on Oct. 26, 2005, when she is credit­ed with saving more than 50 lives by laying down suppressive fire.
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Offline HopefulA.B.

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Glass ceiling?
« Reply #983 on: April 29, 2012, 01:28:27 »
Does the army have a glass ceiling for women?

Website so you know what a glass ceiling is. It's a Socialogical term: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-glass-ceiling.htm

Offline RDJP

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Re: Glass ceiling?
« Reply #984 on: April 29, 2012, 01:34:08 »
I would think only if you let it....

Offline jeffb

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Re: Glass ceiling?
« Reply #985 on: April 29, 2012, 07:32:46 »
Does the army have a glass ceiling for women?

Website so you know what a glass ceiling is. It's a Socialogical term: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-glass-ceiling.htm

No, it does not. While it is true that there are few female flag officers, I suspect this has more to do with the low percentage of women in the occupations that tend to produce the most flag officers, namely, the combat arms. At 2 RCHA there soon 3 of the 5 Bty's will be commanded by women.

A quick search provided the bio's of the four female flag officers:

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dsa-dns/sa-ns/ab/sobv-vbos-eng.asp?mAction=View&mBiographyID=297
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dsa-dns/sa-ns/ab/sobv-vbos-eng.asp?mAction=View&mBiographyID=116
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dsa-dns/sa-ns/ab/sobv-vbos-eng.asp?mAction=View&mBiographyID=782
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dsa-dns/sa-ns/ab/sobv-vbos-eng.asp?mAction=View&mBiographyID=605

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Flag Officer usually denotes Navy, General Officer Army & AF.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Glass ceiling ?
« Reply #987 on: April 29, 2012, 10:18:24 »
Major-General Whitecross is at the highest position that one can achieve in her engineering branch.  Rear-Admiral Bennet is in the highest position a reservist can achieve in the whole military, and knowing her, I would not bet against her finding a way to go one better somehow. So much for glass ceiling.

Also, of late, we have had two of our "Commander-in-chief" that were women. They are called Governor-General.

And our actual head of all armed forces is a woman: Her Majesty QE-II. Canada has already stated that it would support the current attempts, in England, at modernizing the rules of succession so that women descendants would take their place in the line of succession on par with their male brethren.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Glass ceiling ?
« Reply #988 on: April 29, 2012, 10:22:34 »
Major-General Whitecross is at the highest position that one can achieve in her engineering branch.  Rear-Admiral Bennet is in the highest position a reservist can achieve in the whole military, and knowing her, I would not bet against her finding a way to go one better somehow. So much for glass ceiling.

And BGen Jaeger is in the highest position of leadership in the CF Health Services.

Offline Kirsten Luomala

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BGen Jagar has moved on from Surgeon General about 2years ago to a position in Kabul.  Current Surgeon General is Commador Jung who retires this summer.

Offline Scott

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Re: Glass ceiling?
« Reply #990 on: April 29, 2012, 13:27:08 »
Does the army have a glass ceiling for women?

Website so you know what a glass ceiling is. It's a Socialogical term: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-glass-ceiling.htm

Is this a subtle troll? Because it smells like it.
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Offline dogger1936

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Women NCM's in my Armd unit have had very mixed results. None have made it past the rank of Cpl that I am aware of. Many completed a BE and were either married and out, medically released, or OT'd shortly after.

We have had a few females who really stood out above their male peer's who have gone on to serve in SF roles out of the Armd trade.However those who were outstanding soldiers regardless of gender all moved onto other trades.

Women within the NCM ranks of combat arms I would have to say are the lowest in my unit. Based on only personal observations women don't stick around in my trade as NCM's.

Offline jeffb

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That is not the case in the artillery. I know of at least 3 women Warrant Officers and soon 3 of the 5 Maj's at 2 RCHA will be women.

Offline ObedientiaZelum

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Re: Glass ceiling?
« Reply #993 on: April 29, 2012, 14:16:08 »
Is this a subtle troll? Because it smells like it.

This comment in conjunction with the 'I'm a cutter' one has me thinking the same.
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Offline dogger1936

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That is not the case in the artillery. I know of at least 3 women Warrant Officers and soon 3 of the 5 Maj's at 2 RCHA will be women.

Seems to be quite a few in the infantry in comparison as well.

Offline Rifleman62

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Info on changes in the US Army.

http://www.military.com/news/article/army-opens-jobs-in-combat-battalions-to-women.html?ESRC=topstories.RSS

(US) Army Opens Jobs in Combat Battalions to Women

May 16, 2012 - Associated Press - Kristin M. Hall

FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. -- Female soldiers this week are moving into new jobs in once all-male units as the Army breaks down formal barriers in recognition of what has already happened in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The policy change announced earlier this year is being tested at nine brigades, including one at Fort Campbell, before going Army-wide. It opens thousands of jobs to female soldiers by loosening restrictions meant to keep them away from the battlefield. Experience on the ground in the past decade showed women were fighting and dying alongside male soldiers anyway.

Col. Val Keaveny Jr., commander of the 4th Brigade Combat Team that is among units piloting the change, told The Associated Press that for the last decade it has been common to have women temporarily attached to the combat units and serve alongside them.

"Women have served in our Army since the Revolutionary War and they have done phenomenal work and continue to do so today," he said. "There is great talent and now we can have it in the headquarters of infantry, armor and cavalry."

Under the new policy, female officers and non-commissioned officers will be assigned to combat units below the brigade level. The change will open up about 14,000 new jobs for women in the military, but there are still more than 250,000 jobs that remain closed to women.

The new jobs within combat battalions are in personnel, intelligence, logistics, signal corps, medical and chaplaincy. The Army is also opening jobs that were once entirely closed to women, such as mechanics for tanks and artillery and rocket launcher crew members.

The 4th Brigade draws its lineage from the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, whose World War II heroics led to books and a TV miniseries called the "Band of Brothers." But these days, Keaveny said there are more than 350 women already serving in the brigade and they will be opening 36 new jobs to women in the battalions.

"For the last 10 years, we have been fighting alongside women. In my experience I have seen that the Band of Brothers quickly integrate their sisters and they are a family," he said.

Capt. Elizabeth Evans, a 44-year-old mother of five, is one of the first women assigned to the combat battalions. She will be serving as a battalion S1, whose job is to oversee personnel issues within the battalion, including awards, casualties, human resources and other administrative responsibilities. She said there is a lot of pride associated with serving in an infantry unit.

"I think there's a rich history in the 101st and especially the 4th Brigade Combat Team," she said. "To me that means something. It means something to be a part of not necessarily history, but to be a part of a once all-male battalion."

Evans, who has deployed to Afghanistan, noted that women have been serving in dangerous jobs in Iraq and Afghanistan for 10 years.

"With the fluidity of the battlefield and how there are no front lines, it just makes more sense to me to allow women to come into those roles, those non-combat staff roles," she said.

Keaveny said these changes will have minimum impact on where women will be located while deployed. Battalion headquarters are generally located at bases where women were already stationed and the Army has been using female engagement teams to reach out to civilians in remote areas.

"Quite honestly, we don't see there's going to be any friction," he said.

Kayla Williams, author of "Love My Rifle More Than You: Young and Female in the US Army," served with the 3rd Brigade Combat Team under the 101st Airborne Division during the initial invasion into Iraq as an enlisted soldier in military intelligence.

Early in the war, she wasn't even issued plates for her ballistic vest "because females can't serve in combat," she said. She said once she was temporarily attached to an infantry battalion at Fort Campbell that had no female latrines.

As an Arabic translator, she was attached to infantry units rather than assigned, but doing the same things as her male infantry counterparts, including going on foot patrols and living in remote combat outposts.

"Women have been serving in very forward deployed roles, and women have been serving side-by-side with combat arms personnel, just not in a formalized assigned method," said Williams, who is a fellow at the Truman National Security Project.

She said these incremental changes could improve the professional development of both men and women in the military, but acknowledged that the military still has a long way to go to leveling the field for women.

"It is my personal opinion that the institutionalization of women as not being able to serve in combat arms has a way of subtly allowing sexism within the military," she said.

Evans said she hopes the expanded roles will encourage more women to consider a career in the Army.

"I think for females in general, it's bringing us new avenues for accomplishments, for professional growth. In my personal belief, we are a part of supporting our infantryman," she said.
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Offline Rifleman62

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Fits into subject, although US Army.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/army-reviews-women-ranger-school-16360414#.T7QyN8U8W08

Army Reviews Whether Women Can Go to Ranger School

LOLITA C. BALDOR - Associated Press - WASHINGTON May 16, 2012 (AP)

U.S. Army leaders have begun to study the prospect of sending female soldiers to the service's prestigious Ranger school — another step in the effort to broaden opportunities for women in the military.

Gen. Raymond Odierno, Army chief of staff, said Monday that he's asked senior commanders to provide him with recommendations and a plan this summer. And while he stressed that no decisions have been made, he suggested that Ranger school may be a logical next step for women as they move into more jobs closer to the combat lines.

"If we determine that we're going to allow women to go in the infantry and be successful, they are probably at some time going to have to go through Ranger school," Odierno told reporters. "If we decide to do this, we want the women to be successful."

According to Odierno, about 90 percent of senior Army infantry officers have gone to the school and are qualified as Rangers. Allowing women to go to Ranger school, he said, would allow them to be competitive with their male counterparts as they move through the ranks.

Going to Ranger school, however, does not automatically mean women would be allowed to serve in one of the Army's three elite Ranger battalions, which are Army special operations forces. In fact, many male soldiers who wear the coveted Ranger tab on their uniforms never actually serve in one of the three battalions.

Currently, women are not allowed to serve as special operations, infantry or armor forces, which are considered the most dangerous combat jobs. They are, however, allowed to serve in a number of support jobs such as medics, military police and intelligence officers that are sometimes attached to combat brigade units.

Odierno said his commanders are looking at whether the Army should open up infantry and armor jobs to women, and how that should be done.

As of this week, 200 women reported to nine different battalions around the country, as the Army implements plans to formally allow women to serve in smaller units that are closer to the front lines. New Pentagon rules allowing women to serve at the battalion level — rather than just the larger brigade — were unveiled earlier this year, opening up about 14,000 more jobs for women across all the military services. There are currently more than 250,000 positions that are closed to women.

A brigade is roughly 3,500 troops split into several battalions of about 800 soldiers each. Historically, brigades were based farther from the front lines and they often include top command and support staff, while battalions are usually in closer contact with the enemy.

Women make up about 16 percent of the Army.
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Offline ArmyVern

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Well, good on the US ... finally. About 2.5 decades too late and still no combat trades; I figure it'll be at least another 2.5 decades for them to catch up to us on that front.

Really?? They need to trial this "experiment" despite the fact their chicks have, in effect, been doing this in a war zone for the past decade? Interesting ... wow.
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Offline Dimsum

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I can't remember if this was mentioned here already, but the Australian Army is also considering opening combat positions to women.  In fact, a delegation of female CF personnel are currently in Australia as advisors for a few weeks.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-08/canadian-women-share-combat-experiences/3997306
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Offline ObedientiaZelum

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Quote
She said once she was temporarily attached to an infantry battalion at Fort Campbell that had no female latrines.
Well that's just disgusting!

Quote

Going to Ranger school, however, does not automatically mean women would be allowed to serve in one of the Army's three elite Ranger battalions, which are Army special operations forces. In fact, many male soldiers who wear the coveted Ranger tab on their uniforms never actually serve in one of the three battalions.
Unless placed in a ranger battalion taking the course and getting the tab can be largely a prestige thing for SNCOs and officers-that from a tabbed officer down in California. (who wasn't in a ranger battalion)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 21:55:44 by ObedientiaZelum »
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