Topic: New Coast Guard Ships

[whiskey601]

Anyone have a link to the new CCG ships that are to be built? Here is what I gathered from the radio this morning:

Length :   ~ 160-175'

Numbers:  5 in the class

Location:  Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Seaway

To replace 2 older ships,

Purpose: Border Security

Crew: ~ 16-18 + room for 12-20  heavily armed pers.

Speed: greater than 28 knots.

Total cost of project for ship construction:  ~ 250 million, plus related attached systems.

I note the budget speaks of only 4 vessels, but the CIO of the Coast Guard is stating there will be 5 such vessels. Might there already be  one under construction? 


 
 

[Ex-Dragoon]

According to the budget 6 ships are suppose to be built for the CCG..2 will be research vessels and the other 4 will be some sort of patrol cutter.

[Kirkhill]

http://www.masamarine.com/ship_patrol.html

Here's one company's slate of offerings that might be in line.  

They supplied the Leonard J. Cowley for the Canadian Coast Guard, which meets the dimensional requirements.   It is also involved in the New Zealand Offshore Patrol Vessels, Irish and Finnish vessels.

All of them roughly in the 50-80 m zone with 15-35 knot speeds.     The Cowley seems to have been one of the slowest they built but that seems to have been more due to Canadian Government specifications and the Coast Guards sense of its role than any limitation inherent in the design that would prevent larger power plants and higher speeds.

Curiously the same company also offers a "double-acting" vessel that is an oil tanker that has a conventional hull-form going forwards and is an ice-breaker going backwards.

If the JSS programme were split into AORs and LPD/H vessels then these might make really interesting AORs for the Navy.  Especially if a helo deck and accomodation for 1-200 troops and some light vehicle storage space were added.  No floodable dodks though.  Leave those to the LPD/H.

http://www.masamarine.com/ship_tankers.html

[whiskey601]

Higher speed is apparently a desirable factor in this new vessel. The proposed uses are drug and customs interdiction, and responding to terrorist threats from the great lakes. The vessels are supposed to be specifically designed to embark and transport law enforcement and related pers.  SAR will be a secondary role. It appears these vessels will have negligible roles to play in the maintenance of navigable waters.

These types of ships may have an enhanced role to play in the CDS plan for improving the CF contribution to homeland security.

It is,IMHO, significant that they are not Navy ships- which appear to be reserved for war fighting. 

Cheers.

[Kirkhill]

Agreed whiskey.

The higher speed as well as the accomodation for  "12-20 heavily armed persons" in addition to a crew of  about 16 watch-keepers.

It seems that just like the New Zealanders have made their OPVs multi-agency vessels we might be heading the same way.  But where they are Navy vessels with Army and Airforce personnel along with Police and Fisheries agents we are putting them under the Coast Guard's auspices.

Not a bad move actually IMHO.

[mjohnston39]

DFO press release: http://www-comm.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/pages/release/bckgrnd/2005/bg001_e.htm

NEW VESSELS FOR CANADIAN COAST GUARD

FOUR NEW MID-SHORE FISHERIES PATROL VESSELS

These four new vessels will be used primarily for fisheries patrols for domestic overfishing infractions and conservation and protection enforcement.

They will also be multi-tasked to take part in search and rescue incidents when needed. The vessels will provide support to the Coast Guard's federal marine security partners and will work with the United States Coast Guard

The vessels will be equipped with state-of-the-art electronics for secure communications, will be less than 40 metres on the water-line and have a cruising speed of 25 knots.

A CCG crew of approximately eight will be on board with approximately two Fisheries and Oceans Canada fishery officers. There will be room for potentially 14 people on board.

The vessel will carry up to two fast rescue craft (rigid hull inflatables) for rapid response and boarding of fishing vessels.

The patrol vessels will have the capacity to sail out to 120 nautical miles.


THE TWO NEW FISHERIES RESEARCH VESSELS

These new vessels will be used primarily for DFO fisheries science research into the quantity and health of various species of fish and shellfish

Like all CCG vessels, the research vessels will also respond to search and rescue incidents when needed.

The science vessels will be equipped with state-of-the-art wet and dry laboratories for research into comparative species analysis and will carry acoustics to detect fish density.

They will be approximately 65 metres long and have a cruising speed of 14 knots. An approximate CCG crew of 12 will be on board with the possibility for 10 scientists.

The vessels will have the capacity to sail out over 200 nautical miles.

and

FISHERIES MINISTER ANNOUNCES DETAILS OF BUDGET FUNDING FOR
CANADIAN COAST GUARD AND OCEANS ACTION PLAN
 
VANCOUVER â “ The Honourable Geoff Regan, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, visited the Canadian Coast Guard Station Kitsilano today to give further details of the Coast Guard funding announced in last week's federal budget and what it will mean for the Pacific Coast.

â Å“The Canadian Coast Guard needs a modern and efficient fleet of vessels to be able to provide its valuable services to Canadians,â ? said Minister Regan. â Å“I am very pleased that the Canadian Coast Guard will be receiving $276 million over the next five years to acquire six new vessels. The current plan is to base three of those vessels â “ a science research trawler and two mid-shore fisheries patrol vessel â “ on the Pacific Coast.â ?

The Minister was joined at the announcement by David L. Emerson, Minister of Industry, and co-senior Minister for BC, and Senator Jack Austin.

â Å“The Coast Guard plays a vital role in the lives of British Columbians,â ? said Mr. Emerson. "I'm extremely pleased to see the federal budget has recognized this fact and allocated significant new funds to upgrade the fleet on the Pacific Coast.â ?

The Government of Canada announced in the Budget that the Canadian Coast Guard will receive $276 million over the next five years to begin the modernization of its fleet. Nationally, this will involve the acquisition of two fisheries-research vessels and four mid-shore fisheries patrol boats. Although plans could change based on shifting regional requirements, the current plan is to locate a science trawler and patrol vessel in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia; a patrol vessel in Quebec City, and the three new vessels on the West Coast.

In addition to the $276 million for the six new vessels, the Coast Guard is also receiving funding for the acquisition and operation of four new mid-shore patrol vessels that will be used for security on the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence River. The vessels will be jointly operated by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. This funding is part of the $222 million (on an accrual accounting basis over five years) allocated to federal security agencies to increase security on the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence River system and will provide the means for the federal security partners to work together more effectively on these waterways.

The new funding will benefit Canadians by allowing the Coast Guard to better carry out its mandate of saving lives, supporting marine security, protecting fisheries, enhancing maritime safety, facilitating marine commerce and protecting the marine environment. It also enables the Coast Guard to fulfill its commitment toward the government's Oceans Action Plan including at-sea fisheries research and enforcement activities.

Further details of the Oceans Action Plan were also discussed by Minister Regan at Kitsilano Base today. The Plan, which focuses on improving the management, health and productive capacity of Canada's oceans, will receive an investment of $28 million over the next two years.

â Å“Our aims are to develop Canada's ocean resources for the benefit of coastal communities while protecting the marine environment,â ? Minister Regan explained. â Å“We will work with Canadians to develop integrated management plans in all three oceans that touch Canada, protect fragile marine ecosystems and species by moving forward with a national network of marine protected areas, and carry out marine ecosystem science to make better ocean management decisions.â ?

The Oceans Action Plan today consists of targeted actions over two years while Canada completes a long-term oceans management agenda. It is consistent with directions to pursue sustainable development, integrated management, marine protected areas and marine ecosystem science set out in the Oceans Act and Canada's Oceans Strategy.

The Oceans Action Plan also responds to specific commitments made by Canada and the Province of British Columbia when they signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) on the implementation of Canada's Oceans Strategy in September 2004. The Government of Canada wishes to explore similar MOUs with other provinces and territories.

Looks like a total of 10 new vessels with 4 being joint RCMP/CCG manned.



Mike

[Cdn Blackshirt]

I'm glad to hear the CCG is getting more vessels, but did the following sentence seem strange to anyone else?

"They will be approximately 65 metres long and have a cruising speed of 14 knots. An approximate CCG crew of 12 will be on board with the possibility for 10 scientists.

The vessels will have the capacity to sail out over 200 nautical miles."

I may not be a naval genius, but this sounds like a truly clueless paperpusher (most likely bilingual   ) talking out of their rear end, and no one catching it.   A vessel of that size and with that mission should have a range well beyond 2000 miles, should it not?



M.     

[whiskey601]

The specs for the PB's are different than what the CIO for the CCG stated. He also didn't say anything about ships for the RCMP, but such vessels make sense. I have a hard time believing a 40 metere ship will have space for only 14!!!

[Tach9]

I don't believe that the Coast Guard should have theability to be armed or carry guns. They should be for search anfd rescue and not prevent people from coming to our fishing grounds. how can we keep our reputation as a peace-loving country that welcomes all immigrants if we are stopping people at the boarders!

We should be expanding our helthcare rather than arming the coast guard, or the police.

[Ex-Dragoon]

Ummmm hello...where does it say the CCG is going to be armed. Pay attention to whats being said.

[mjohnston39]

may not be a naval genius, but this sounds like a truly clueless paperpusher (most likely bilingual  ) talking out of their rear end, and no one catching it.  A vessel of that size and with that mission should have a range well beyond 2000 miles, should it not?

Perhaps the 200nm range was in reference on how far out the ship will patrol, not its endurance

Mike

[DJL]

The vessels will have the capacity to sail out over 200 nautical miles."

I may not be a naval genius, but this sounds like a truly clueless paperpusher (most likely bilingual  ) talking out of their rear end, and no one catching it.  A vessel of that size and with that mission should have a range well beyond 2000 miles, should it not?

The passage makes perfect sense, with 200 nm being the boundary of our exclusive economic zone, thus the author notes that the vessels will have the ability to operate outside of our EEZ.

[STONEY]

The press releases made by the GOV. after the budget were just political grandstanding by politicians wanting to be re-elected and really don't stand up under scrutiny of the whole document and reading between the lines. The press releases talk only about the positive and don't mention the negative.

The Coast Guard is in fact being cut back once again in order to help fund these new Vessels. They are cutting back on the number of helo's in the fleet by selling them off , each region will lose a helo. The remaining Helo flight hours are restricted to save money. The ice Recco plane has been cut to save money. On any given day over half of the coast guard vessels are tied alongside with no or skeleton crews onboard because the Coast Guard cannot afford to run them. Several ships have been tied up for litterly years. The ships that are operating are operating with bare minimum crews standing 1 in 2 watches for 28 day cycle. For example the 83 meter 4000 ton medium icebreaker/buoy tender/sar cutter only carry 28 men counting cooks & stewarts so at any given time half of the crew is off sleeping while the other half , 10 or so are running the ship. The crew is changed every 28 days to rest them.
Two of the new vessels will be fisheries research vessels,  they are essentially fishing trawlers being aquired to replace two old vessels that are in bad condition & maintenance nightmares.  Their operation is funded by research grants and hence the Coast Guard can afford to run them.  Four of the new patrol vessels are for patroling the US border in the great lakes & seaway so operational funding will come from RCMP, Customs & border security agencies.  The other 4 patrol boats are for fisheries enforcement and are meant for near shore coastal patrols only and are replacing old obselete cutters that only sail when there fuel budget allows. As for Coast Guard vessels being armed , remember that Fisheries Enforcement officers are peace officers and are trained at RCMP Depot in Regina and carry sidearms and are carried by CG vessels when on fisheries enforcement ops & the larger vessels have machine guns for their use. For any other enforcement ops RCMP are carried and do any boardings. CG ship crews are all civilan and are not armed. The CG has in the last few years has closed & sold many lighthouses and laid off the people who used to man them, the ones that remain are unmanned and when they malfunction are not repaired until a complaint is received . The CG is divesting itself of half of all its aids to navigation to private contractors , supposedly to save money. Some defective buoys and nav aids go months before repair due to vessel or spare parts shortages. Meanwhile headquarters with their swollen staff seems to be able to fly around the country on expence accounts holding meetings on how to save money by cutting at the sharp end. So you see the CF aren"t the only one's that have suffered cutbacks and they are still ongoing, as they have just announced more layoffs.

Cheers 
 

[Spartan]

I'm just wondering if it would be better to have the Coast Guard  as a unit of the RCMP? the CF? DND? Would this complicate matters further? I, having very limited knowledge on the operations of the CG, I was just thinking that the variety of things that the coast guard does can fit under these other mandates like the RCMP, the CF or DND.

[STONEY]

The Coast Guard is already an amalgamation of several other government fleets. The Dept. of Transport ice breaking fleet, Marine Aids to Navigation fleet,Search &Rescue cutter fleet,  RCMP marine division fleet, Canadian Hydrographic Service fleet, Dept. of Fisheries research fleet and dept. of fisheries enforcement fleet . These services all cost money and it has been gov. policy to make services user pay or unload them to private sector just as they have unloaded the country's airports and harbours & ports. The trouble is that not all services can be made to make a profit so they will fade into oblivion like many small airports & harbours.
 

[newfin]

Just found this this morning.  There is some updated info on the specs of the ships and photos of some of the ones that the CCG considers suitable to meet their requirements.  It looks like the RFP is to be sent to the shipyards this month.  Total requirement is for 8 hulls.  This Powerpoint also names the vessels that will be replaced.



http://www.uscg.mil/d9/wwm/marinesafety/blomshield/MSPV.ppt

[Colin P]

A single point davit system for launch RIB's!!!

I sure hope they arent' talking about a HIAB system. We used to launch our tiny Avon Searider that way. It was truely dangerous in any sort of sea state, even with lines securing it. Trying to launch a 733 that way is going to get someone killed! Always fun with the cutter rolling 15% to come alongside in the RIB and have the steel boom from the HIAB trying to spear you!

[MarkOttawa]

Post moved to this topic:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,57488.0.html

Mark
Ottawa

[MarkOttawa]

This is what the Liberal Fisheries minister said early in March, 2005
http://www-comm.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/pages/release/p-releas/2005/nr009_e.htm

The Government of Canada announced in the [2005] Budget that the Canadian Coast Guard will receive $276 million over the next five years to begin the modernization of its fleet. Nationally, this will involve the acquisition of two fisheries-research vessels and four mid-shore fisheries patrol boats...

This is what is in yesterday's 2007 federal budget:
http://www.budget.gc.ca/2007/themes/papemhe.html

$324 million over 10 years to the Canadian Coast Guard for six new large vessels to support its role in fisheries science and enforcement...

So the same number of vessels over ten years rather than five.  And hardly "large".  At this rate the CCG is just going to go down the tube.

See this topic for the aging vessels:

Fraser slams Coast Guard in newest AG report
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,57488.msg527793.html#msg527793

Mark
Ottawa

[newfin]

I sent Loyola Hearn, the Minister, an e-mail asking him to clarify if this announcement was for new money.  It is very hard to find any news on the internet regarding the older Coast Guard prject for 10 ships but I think I read recently that the contract would be awarded this spring.  If anyone has any more accurate info it would be greatly appreciated.

[Happydiver]

STONEY's info is right on the nose.  The way things work in the CCG is when you add something to one side, you take away from the other so that your budget always balances out.  To the public you look like you're moving ahead and modernizing but in reality you're taking services away elsewhere.  In some cases like the contracting out of servicing navigational aids and extending the service cycle out to 4 instead of 3 years this can be warranted due to better technology and better use of allocation of monies.  But in most cases, if the public doesn't scream for services, they'll lose what they've got.  That's how I got a job as a Rescue Diver with the CG while the rest of the Pacific fleet was left to rot.

The problems with the CG start from the 'yes' men from the commissioner on down.  A couple years back, we had a commissioner who said the CG was in a deplorable state and needed extra cash and couldn't stay on budget.  PM Martin lopped his head off and put someone in who wouldn't raise waves.  Everyone took notice and learned how to duck and cover.

This leads me to the idiocy of these joint crewed patrol vessels.  Taking CG personnel and pairing them up with RCMP makes no sense.  CG is civilian and unionized.  The two groups have no common backgrounds and the CG has a very poor record of wanting to harmonize with other government agencies.  They're too worried about what happens if something breaks or heaven forbid if someone gets hurt.  I've aided police forces and customs and in general they're all geared up for 'bear' and I'm standing up as coxswain in a bright red jacket as we come alongside a vessel to be boarded.  The CG personnel will be demanding adequate training and compensation which will probably never appear.  I worked as a CG rescue diver for four years and we're still in the process of settling an adequate compensation allowance.  Currently for my expertise and for risking my life, I receive an extra $1.40/day.  As for ongoing training, if we're lucky and are given the time to go, the CG puts on a 5 day drinkfest called Training Week once a year where the same courses like 'Chainsaw Safety' are given again and again.

The vessels themselves are needed.  The state of our security over the waters out in the Pacific is deplorable.  The CG does infrequent patrols and it's not our job anyways because we can't do anything other than call for help.  The Navy isn't around much.  The RCMP has a few vessels but they've got a lot of area to cover.  Fisheries officers just check for fishing licences.  The Vancouver area is just now trying to put together waterborne ERT teams and an effective waterborne Customs team.  The best security assest we've got out here is the marine radar used for traffic services.

[newfin]

Okay - here's a good piece of news.  Those ships that were so quietly announced in Budget 2007 are for new vessels to be purchased with new money.  There was a fear that this announcement was a re-announcement of old money spread out over 10 years instead of five.  I e-mailed DFO and here is the reply I recieved today:

-----Original Message-----
From: Daley, Cindy
Sent: March 27, 2007 11:01 AM
To: Sue, Brenda; Peck, Steve
Subject: RE: clarification please on vessels for Coast Guard

Budget 2007 annouced new funding in the amount of $324M over the next 10
years to acquire 4 additional Mid-Shore Patrol Vessels (MSPV)(these are
in addition to the 8 approved in Budget 2005),1 additional Offshore
Fishery Science Vessel (OFSV) to replace the CCGS Teleost and 1 new
Offshore Oceanographic Research Vessel to replace the CCGS Hudson.
Budget 2007 is additional to the Fleet Renewal which commenced in 2005.
Hope this addresses your concern.
Cindy   




...and that is from Cindy Daley in the DFO (not sure of here position, the e-mail did not say).  The e-mail address that it was sent from is:  Sue, Brenda [sueb@DFO-MPO.GC.CA]


Good info - it means that the CCG is getting some more money for a total of 14 new ships.

[MarkOttawa]

newfin: This was the 2005 announcement:
http://www-comm.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/pages/release/p-releas/2005/nr009_e.htm

The Government of Canada announced in the Budget that the Canadian Coast Guard will receive $276 million over the next five years to begin the modernization of its fleet. Nationally, this will involve the acquisition of two fisheries-research vessels and four mid-shore fisheries patrol boats. Although plans could change based on shifting regional requirements, the current plan is to locate a science trawler and patrol vessel in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia; a patrol vessel in Quebec City, and the three new vessels on the West Coast.
In addition to the $276 million for the six new vessels, the Coast Guard is also receiving funding for the acquisition and operation of four new mid-shore patrol vessels that will be used for security on the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence River. The vessels will be jointly operated by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. This funding is part of the $222 million (on an accrual accounting basis over five years) allocated to federal security agencies to increase security on the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence River system and will provide the means for the federal security partners to work together more effectively on these waterways.

The "mid-shore patrol vessels" for the St. Lawrence will clearly be different vessels from those to operate on the seas.  Only four of the latter were in the 2005 budget.

So one assumes the new money is for four sea-going MSPVs, to make a total of eight.   It seems to me dishonest to claim a total of total of twelve when four are very different (and not "large") fresh-water boats.

Spin, spin, spin.  Even four more sea-going vessels will be good but, put another way, four more MSPVs over ten years is not a great deal.  And meanwhile the other large vessels rust away.
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/fleet-flotte/vessels-navires/main_e.asp

Any thoughts on this?

Coastal defence a toothless 'hoax,' Senate report says
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070328.warctic0328/BNStory/National/home

Instead of the navy's being tied to Arctic patrol duties, the Coast Guard should be elevated to a national security agency that reports to Parliament and can enforce security both in the Arctic and along the rest of Canada's “woefully undermanned” 243,000-kilometre coastline, the committee says...

Instead of the navy's being tied to Arctic patrol duties, the Coast Guard should be elevated to a national security agency that reports to Parliament and can enforce security both in the Arctic and along the rest of Canada's “woefully undermanned” 243,000-kilometre coastline, the committee says...

Frigates are too big and costly for littoral patrols, while coastal patrol vessels have poor sea-keeping capabilities and are too slow and crews become seasick when the vessels are stationed off the Grand Banks for more than a few hours.

“Essentially, these are training vessels. They are not up to protecting Canada's coasts,” the 124-page report says.

The committee calls on the government to buy three year-round icebreakers [yes], to be managed by an armed Canadian Coast Guard with policing powers [no].

The report also recommends:

• The beefed-up Coast Guard be allocated eight new high-endurance, ice-tolerant cutters [for the West Coast?] for the East and West Coasts that can operate in high seas and maintain pursuit speeds...

One wonders if the eight MSPVs will meet the committee's wishes.

Mark
Ottawa

[newfin]

Mark - if you refer to the link I provided above on Feb 10th you will see that the oceangoing MSPV's and the Great Lakes going C&P vessels are one in the same design.  The Power Point presentation clearly states this.  The email I have included states that the new funding is for four additional mid-shore patrol vessels.  That makes a total of 12 MSPV's.  From all of the published documentation from the government on this subject everything indicates that they are all to be of the exact same design. Also included in that Power point are photos of examples of acceptable, existing designs.  These ships are clearly designed to operate in the ocean environment.  ...And I made an addition error in my most recent post.  If we add up all of these announcements the total funding as it has been announced (and God knows that these plans are likely to change) covers a total of 16 hulls (12 MSPV's and 4 other ships).  If the CCG is really going to go on a building spree like that over the next 10 years and the JSS and FELEX programs for the Navy will be getting underway in the next few years then we all have to wonder if the Canadian ship building industry will be able to cope with so much business.  And I have not even included any of the SCSC future project or the Arctic patrol vessels or any replacement ice breakers for the Coast Guard.  I know that the new owners (not sure if they have taken control yet in light of the recent fatality) of Port Weller Dry Docks publicly mentioned in our local paper that they were hoping to get a piece of the Mid-Shore Patrol Vessel Project for the Canadian Coast Guard.

Looks like the domestic ship building industry is about to go on another one of their boom cycles courtesy of the Government of Canada.

[Happydiver]

In regards to Mark from Ottawa's quote about arming the Coast Guard, it ain't going to happen anytime soon due mostly to budgetary constraints in regards to the prohibitive cost of training.  We had a visit about a year ago from the Commissioner of the CG, John Adams and he went through why the CG won't be getting guns.  First you need a relatively (for the CG) massive initial outlay for the weapons and initial training.  Next you have to spend huge amounts of money on recurrent training so that you don't end up with a bunch of cases of friendly fire.  Unlike the military, the CG will never have the money to adequately fund the training budget required to safely be issued weapons.  Hence, these new patrol vessels will be joint manned by CG and RCMP.

On top of that, the general culture of the CG is one of being pacifist.  Most of the current ship board personnel don't want weapons and prefer to be thought of as the good guys, not the cops.  Out here on the West coast, I would say half of them are pot heads and most are hard drinkers.  They are not the type of people that should be given weapons.  Then on top of that you've got the union issues that would chronically pop up due to the fact that you've got people armed and specially trained and not adequately compensated for their special status.

The CG will be totally happy with it's role as buoy tenders, ice breakers, pollution response and SAR.  The current leadership has no desire to try to think out of the particular box they've built for themselves.

In my opinion, if you want to guard our coasts the best agencies available are the Navy and the RCMP.  With the RCMP, you've got the problem of too few personnel with sea going experience.  With the Navy, you might have certain legal issues that might be better suited to Customs or the police.  In the meanwhile, it would be pretty easy to sneak into Canadian waters.  I think it was only recently that the radar holes to the north of Vancouver Island were closed up but I'm not sure of that.