Author Topic: New Coast Guard Ships  (Read 26639 times)

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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2008, 09:22:42 »
Mid-shore patrol vessels--fewer, less capable, more delivery slippage (usual copyright disclaimer):

To cut costs, coast guard considering fewer, slower ships
Tories scrapped original order for 12 ships when bids came in high

http://thechronicleherald.ca/NovaScotia/1078086.html

Quote
The coast guard is considering buying 10 mid-shore patrol vessels instead of the dozen originally planned to reduce costs.

It’s also looking at a cost-cutting measure that would mean the ships get slower as they age.

"They are looking for ways to make the project more affordable," a source involved in the project said Wednesday.

"Have we asked for too much? Have we given the vessels too many bells and whistles?"

The Conservative government quietly scuttled a plan last month to build 12 mid-shore patrol vessels for the coast guard. Bids had been received for that program, but they exceeded the anticipated $340-million cost, according to Public Works.

Estimates from shipyards interested in building the vessels were between 30 and 40 per cent higher than that price, said the source.

"So you need a lot of savings."

The Tories are still promising the ships will be built, but now experts are looking at ways to shave money off the project.

One possibility would be to change the specifications for the propulsion systems, said the source.

The coast guard had asked the ships operate at their peak speed at 90 per cent power when they are new. Changing that to 100 per cent would mean the vessels would be cheaper to build. But they would also get heavier when more equipment is inevitably added, said the source. Without the extra power in reserve, that means the vessels would slow as they age.

"Each time you add weight, it slows the boat down," said the source.

Three companies, including Irving Shipbuilding, were interested in building the vessels.

Eight of the coast guard patrol vessels were announced in the federal 2006 budget and four were part of the 2007 budget. They were to be up to 43 metres in length and travel at speeds up to 46 km/h.

They were meant to provide criminal and fisheries enforcement, monitor and patrol the ocean and protect sovereignty.

They were to have a crew of eight to 10 and carry RCMP or Department of Fisheries and Oceans enforcement officers.

The first of the new ships were to go into service in 2009 and the remaining in regular intervals up to 2014.

Now it’s looking like if the project does go ahead, the first ship won’t be ready until 2011, said the source.

"You might get them in 2010, but there’s reality, too," said the source.

The coast guard offered no comment by late Wednesday on questions about the proposed changes...

Mark
Ottawa

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Offline newfin

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #76 on: September 03, 2009, 09:06:26 »
I can't believe we finally have a government that takes the military seriously.

Offline canuck101

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New vessels ordered for Canadian Coast Guard
« Reply #77 on: September 04, 2009, 06:33:59 »
New vessels ordered for Canadian Coast Guard

http://www.marinelog.com/DOCS/NEWSMMIX/2009sep00032.html

September 3, 2009

New vessels ordered for Canadian Coast Guard
Canada has now placed the much anticipated contract for the Canadian Coast Guard's new mid-shore patrol vessels.

Originally it was planned that this would be a 12 ship program. However Canadian government planners hit an obstacle familiar to their American counterparts--shipbuilders wanted more money for the ships than the government wanted to pay.

A new draft RFP for the program was issued February 26 and comments were received from 9 companies. A revised RFP--still for 12 vessels--was issued on April 1.

Yesterday, Canadian ministers announced that a C$194 million contract for nine new mid-shore patrol vessels has been awarded to Irving Shipbuilding Inc., based in Halifax, Nova Scotia.

Preliminary work on the vessels is to begin immediately. The first vessel should be ready for service in 2011. All nine vessels will be delivered by 2013.

Halifax Shipyard estimates up to 155 people will be employed by the project over the next four years. For the greater Halifax community this means an added $35 million in payroll. As well, the company estimated that approximately 50 local Nova Scotian suppliers will benefit from about $32 million in purchases of local goods and services. This is in addition to 130 estimated suppliers from the rest of Canada.

The new mid-shore patrol vessels will replace existing vessels nearing the end of their life expectancies. Five of the vessels will be used primarily to support Department of Fisheries and Oceans conservation and protection programs in the Maritimes, Quebec and Pacific Regions.

The other four vessels will be used in a joint program with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to enhance the maritime security along the Great Lakes - St. Lawrence Seaway system.

Nova Scotia premier Darrell Dexter said yesterday that the province is providing Irving Shipbuilding a C$12.2 million performance guarantee through its Industrial Expansion Fund. He said the contract will provide 50 Nova Scotian suppliers with the opportunity to bid on goods and services totalling $32 million.

Nova Scotia has a long history of working together with Irving Shipbuilding. All partnerships with Irving have been successful resulting in major economic benefits for Nova Scotia.

Yesterday's various announcements were light on technical details, but the RFP's were for medium sized vessels of 37 Ð 43 m that can operate up to 120 nm offshore on a 24/7 watch-keeping basis for up to 14 days. The RFP's called for a top speed of at least 25 knots an carriage of two RHIB's.

The RFP's called for a steel monohull based on an exist-ing proven parent design that has been used in the construction of vessels that have been in service for a minimum of two years and a minimum of 1,000 hours in-service operation. As this requirement concerns the procurement of goods to be used for the national security of Canada, a National Security Exception [NSE] has been invoked, and as such trade agreements do not apply.

Although Canadian official sources have not said much about the parent design, and only released the tiny little graphic in the insert, two hawk eyed Marine Log readers recognized it as a Damen Stan Patrol 4207. Among agencies using it are the Albanian Coast Guard and the U.K. Border Agency (created in its present form in 2008).

Four of the agency's five cutters are Stan Patrol 4207 vessels, built by Damen Shipyards in Holland, and commissioned at a rate of one a year, in 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004. At 42 m long and with a top speed of more than 26 knots, says the agency "this vessel boasts sophisticated surveillance and navigation equipment. It can accommodate up to 16 crew and can remain at sea for long periods in heavy weather conditions."

Each of the U.K. cutters can deploy a 7.4 m RHIB.


MOTOR LIFEBOATS, TOO

No mystery as to the parentage of five 47 ft motor lifeboats that Victoria Shipyards Co. Ltd. is to build for the Canadian Coastguard under a Canadian $19.6 million contract announced Monday.

These vessels will be the latest additions to the existing fleet of 31 47-foot motor lifeboats, introduced to the Canadian Coast Guard in 1999 and later. The basic design was obtained from the U.S. Coast Guard (USCG) following their extensive testing. The USCG design was modified to best fit the needs of the Canadian Coast Guard.

Funding for the five new vessels is provided under Canada's Economic Action Plan.

The new vessels will be used by the Canadian Coast Guard for Search and Rescue operations across the country. Two of the vessels will be based in British Columbia and one each in Ontario, Quebec and Nova Scotia.

Offline kratz

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Re: New vessels ordered for Canadian Coast Guard
« Reply #78 on: September 04, 2009, 08:09:56 »
This is being discussed already in the [ I've merged them- Bruce] forum. Keep in mind, the Canadian Coast Guard is not part of the Navy, they are a civilian government organization.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 08:17:31 by Bruce Monkhouse »
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Offline Colin P

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #79 on: September 04, 2009, 10:57:04 »
The 47' are a great design, the US Coast Guard designed some very good small boats mainly as they took in a lot of input from their crews.

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #80 on: September 04, 2009, 12:46:42 »
Some great looking designs on the Damen website....

www.demen.nl

Apparently what we're looking at:



Other very interesting looking options: [










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Offline gcclarke

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #81 on: September 04, 2009, 15:56:30 »
Of course, the problem with all the "more interesting" options you posted, is that they all come equipped with weapons, and thus our Coast Guard, not being a part of the military unlike many other nations, cannot use them.
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #82 on: September 04, 2009, 16:07:06 »
gcclarke.  Vessels can be purchased without weapons installed.  RCMP and Fishery Officers will be armed when on board.

From Damen's news release:
http://www.damen.nl/News/Mid_Shore_Patrol_Vessel_contract_awarded_to_Irving_Shipbuilding_Inc_.aspx?mId=8565&rId=544

Quote
On the 2nd of September 2009 it was officially announced that Irving Shipbuilding Inc got awarded a contract by the Ministry of Public Works and Government Services of Canada for the construction of a series of Stan Patrol 4207 for the Canadian Coast Guard. The contract envisions nine vessels with an option for another three [not mentioned in the government news release],
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/npress-communique/2009/hq-ac36-eng.htm
of which the first vessel is to be delivered within 24 months after contract award. Irving Shipbuilding Inc contracted Damen for the basic design...

How odd that the material our government released never mentioned the foreign design.

Mark
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Offline Colin P

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #83 on: September 06, 2009, 21:19:49 »
Let's hope they fit them with the hard points which would allow weapons to be fitted if required.

Offline Kirkhill

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #84 on: September 06, 2009, 21:34:17 »

How odd that the material our government released never mentioned the foreign design.

Mark
Ottawa

Aye, and "Recently Damen has been awarded similar contracts, of which the most significant involve the design for the Coastal Patrol Boat and the Fast Response Cutter-B for the United States Coastguard, which are being built by Bollinger Shipyards. "

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Offline Newt

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #85 on: September 02, 2010, 14:26:23 »
1st steel plate cut for new Coast Guard ships.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/09/02/ns-patrol-vessels-ceremony.html

Apologies for the necro post, but it made more sense than a new topic.
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Offline 57Chevy

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #86 on: October 22, 2010, 05:06:43 »
Tories to consider arming Arctic-bound coast guard ships
article link

The Conservative government has revealed that it will consider arming the Canadian Coast Guard's icebreakers as a way to bolster Arctic sovereignty.

The commitment to study the option of placing guns on coast guard ships was the highlight of the government's tabled response this week to recommendations in a report from the Senate fisheries committee about strengthening Canada's presence in the North.

The government has also indicated that it will review new shipping regulations in the Northwest Passage and other Arctic waters with an eye to extending mandatory registration of foreign vessels — which currently applies only to large freighters and other heavy ships — to all foreign-ship traffic in the region, regardless of size.

Read more at link.

                   (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


Offline Colin P

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #87 on: October 22, 2010, 12:42:10 »
Oh god Mike Byers and I are agreeing on something, ugh I feel like I have just been slimed.....

Offline a Sig Op

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #88 on: October 22, 2010, 13:13:05 »
The Conservative government has revealed that it will consider arming the Canadian Coast Guard's icebreakers as a way to bolster Arctic sovereignty.

Hah! Good luck with that!
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Offline Colin P

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #89 on: October 22, 2010, 13:54:11 »
Arming the ships with a couple of .50cals is easy to do. Training the crews to use them is easy to do. Changing the attitudes of the Captains to place their vessels and crews at risk, hard to do.
Boarding parties would require a significant change in job descriptions, training, attitude, physical fitness and resources, along with the change in the Captains.

Offline a Sig Op

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #90 on: October 22, 2010, 14:09:39 »
It's not just the captains, if you said tommorow that the coast guard ships were now fighting ships, you would have a substantial turn over in crew.

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Offline Colin P

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #91 on: October 22, 2010, 14:27:30 »
Back in the 90’s I would agree with you as we had lot’s of the old gang left at least out here on the left coast, many having started on the weather ships. Today I see a different type and with the DFO influence via the Fish Cops I think you would have less issues at the deck level than at the bridge level. Plus once they get to shoot the .50cal, they will want more.
 I guessimated that it would cost about $50,000 to arm a 1100 class buoy tender. 3 MG’s, (1 spare), spare parts, barrels, two mounts either side of ship, already partial protected, just add a plate of armour onto the existing steel, secure storage locker for guns and one for ammo and some protective clothing. Hardwired comms to both mounts from the bridge will be the hardest part.

Training could be provided by the Regular or Reserve navy, Initial training and subsequent annual requalification’s can all be done aboard ship in regular working hours, so training costs other than ammo are minimal.

Again the real issue is forcing the Captains to adjust their thinking.

Offline a Sig Op

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #92 on: October 22, 2010, 15:11:25 »
Mounting a .50 maybe, when they said "armed" I was thinking somthing more substantial, in a turrret at least. But a.50, maybe.

You'd still need major cultural changes in the organization though to make it a standard for all ships.

The CCGS Cowley had two .50s mounted during the early 90. However, there was no real chance of anyone shooting back. Under similar cirumstances, you might be able to get away with arming the fleet.

But the coast guard is not a fighting force, they don't large enough crews to act as a fighting force, and the crews didn't sign up to fight. To turn the coast guard into even the slightest sort of fighting force, you'd have a long road ahead.

I guess it all comes down to needing a clear definition of what sort of force the coast guard would be expected to project.

As far as the actual fitting of guns, machine guns at least, not a problem. Deck space is always at a premium though, but a removable pedestal mount would work. Running comms, also not a problem, could easily be done through the ships telephone system, or even a direct line, quite easily.
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #93 on: October 22, 2010, 15:19:09 »
Colin P: At least it wasn't St Steve Staples  ;D (who doubtless would howl at any more guns for anyone).  Could not any weapons--and some sort of smallish cannon would be required for a real sovereignty role I think--be manned crewed by Navy personnel (reserves?) on some sort of secondment with other useful duties?  Pity in a way we don't have marines in the old shipboard sense.

Mark
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Offline Colin P

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #94 on: October 22, 2010, 16:48:23 »
Frankly if it was up to me the armament would be a RWS mounting a 35mm or 40mm in a self-contained turret, along with the 2 .50cals on each side. Not to mention test firing Hellfires, Javelins, etc from them

The same arguments being put forth are the same we heard when we introduced the concepts of Rescue Specialists onboard Coast Guard ships. Many of the Seniors Officers were horrified at the thought of “Deck Apes” treating pregnant woman or putting a Rescue swimmer into the water. But now I doubt a Captain would want to sail without at least one RS aboard.
Crew turn over on the deck is fairly steady as they are not on contract. Working in the use of shipboard guns into the job description would prove to be interesting, but could also be taken over by a Fish cop, who only makes about $40-50,000 a year and could multi-task while onboard.
I suggest the heavy MG’s because as Sig Ops rightly points out a culture shift must occur and a large weapon system will have no value at this point. Even if they armed the ships next season it will mostly be for propaganda and training purposes. On the bright side DFO won’t be using them to shoot Marine mammals like they used to. (DFO did plan on mounting a .50cal in Georgia Strait to get rid of the nuisance Killer Whales and used to ram them as well)

Mark you are right, at least Byers knows a bit about the Arctic, nothing about the military. Byers is like wrestling with a pig in clean mud, Staples is like wrestling with a pig in a cesspool.

Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #95 on: October 22, 2010, 17:28:30 »
Mounting a .50 maybe, when they said "armed" I was thinking somthing more substantial, in a turrret at least. But a.50, maybe.

You'd still need major cultural changes in the organization though to make it a standard for all ships.

Besides the culture shock, wouldn't there be a legal problem as the Coast Guard is not a law enforcement agency or something like that??
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Offline hamiltongs

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #96 on: October 22, 2010, 17:53:57 »
Colin P: At least it wasn't St Steve Staples  ;D (who doubtless would howl at any more guns for anyone).  Could not any weapons--and some sort of smallish cannon would be required for a real sovereignty role I think--be manned crewed by Navy personnel (reserves?) on some sort of secondment with other useful duties?  Pity in a way we don't have marines in the old shipboard sense.
I don't think the real difficulty would be in the operation of the weapons, but in training the organization to "do" use of force. Some degree of command and control is required, and the Coast Guard as a whole would need to be trained up on the employment of force in a domestic context.

Offline a Sig Op

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #97 on: October 22, 2010, 18:33:06 »
Besides the culture shock, wouldn't there be a legal problem as the Coast Guard is not a law enforcement agency or something like that??

It's a government agency. Government says they get guns, they get guns.
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #98 on: October 22, 2010, 19:39:34 »
Colin P: Brilliant:

Quote
...Byers is like wrestling with a pig in clean mud, Staples is like wrestling with a pig in a cesspool.

But in the end both are porcine oinkers (I has a word starting with "wa" instead of "oi" in mind actually).

Mark
Ottawa
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 11:08:24 by MarkOttawa »
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Offline canuck101

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Re: New Coast Guard Ships
« Reply #99 on: October 23, 2010, 02:03:45 »
Well Could they not setup a detachment of R.C.M.P that could deploy on the coast guard ships when they leave for Northern duties. They have the authority to arrest and could be training to fire the weapons.