Topic: CBSA arming

[GAP]

An Update:

B.C. border guards back on job after walkout
Canadian Press
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060925.wbcborder0925/BNStory/National/home

VANCOUVER — Canadian border guards in British Columbia were back at work Monday after Labour Canada ruled there was no danger from an armed fugitive in the region.

About 60 unarmed inspectors abandoned their posts at four crossings Sunday afternoon south of Vancouver and in the Fraser Valley.

The walkout left motorists with long lineups and short fuses until Canada Border Services Agency managers cleared the backlog through the evening.

Dan Liebel, president of the B.C. Southern Branch of the Customs and Excise Union, said Labour Canada ordered members back to their posts after overruling a U.S. police warning that a murder suspect might be headed to Canada.

“This is the 57th work refusal, and every single time they've ruled in favour of the employer,” he said. “We find that awfully suspicious.”

Mr. Liebel said federal officials “picked (the suspect warning) apart until they could determine that it wasn't a ‘watch-for' of consequence ... and disregarded the other law-enforcement agency information.”

He said he is not impressed with the Conservative government's promise to arm the agency's guards over a 10-years period.

Only a small percentage will be trained to carry sidearms initially, said Mr. Liebel, when all that is needed is a 10-day, qualification-round course.

“Our officers have already been fully trained up to discharging firearms, (but) you're going to take a year and half to (train) 150 out of almost 7,000.”

He said the whereabouts of the California fugitive is unknown.

Officials weren't sure if a vehicle that ran through one of the B.C. crossings behind another car was the suspect in question, he said.
End

[tomahawk6]

Need to at least station the RMC at border crossings until the guards can be armed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,215519,00.html

BLAINE, Wash. —  Four Canadian border crossings were shut down Sunday as about 60 of Canada's unarmed border guards walked off the job after they were warned that a person classified as "armed and dangerous" may be headed into Canada.

[paracowboy]

Officials weren't sure if a vehicle that ran through one of the B.C. crossings behind another car was the suspect in question, he said.

[Trinity]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,50826.0/topicseen.html

Day late, dollar short

[paracowboy]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,50826.0/topicseen.html

Day late, dollar short

merged and moved

[PIKER]

Officials weren't sure if a vehicle that ran through one of the B.C. crossings behind another car was the suspect in question, he said

Make people wait hours in line and streamline everyone into one line.  You are going to get the road ragers.

So was this really about safety or was it posturing by the union?

[gate_guard]

PIKER +1,

It sounds like their union is taking every opportunity it can to get guards to leave their posts.

[PIKER]

It appears that way to me.  I only posed the question as I didn't really see in the reports of the safety concern.  Granted the last incident was a firefight on the border with fugitives but from what was reported this only was a BOLO or Safety alert.  Not sure of the jurisdiction but I'm sure "support" was only a call away? 

But I'm open to be corrected if someone can set the record straight?.. I'm not afforded the same ability to walk off my "post" and I'm of the thought that CBSA should perhaps be the same in the interests of public/homeland safety .. 

[Bergeron 971]

I would have walked out, It is ridiculous that our border services are not armed. They should also have a tactical unit near every border as well.
Crist, when you got to the US, you see their border guards with glocks, some with MP5's. we have mace.

[CDN Aviator]

I would have walked out, It is ridiculous that our border services are not armed. They should also have a tactical unit near every border as well.
Crist, when you got to the US, you see their border guards with glocks, some with MP5's. we have mace.

Good thing you are not a border guard then.  Do the guards not know how to call the RCMP...they had advanced warning from US authorities.  This has nothing to do with safety....just union bullshit......

[Trinity]

They've faced 10 times riskier situations over the years.  The possibility of
a person with a gun and they walk out... union bs i agree.

However, to be fair to many,

If my colleagues were leaving in a situation like that, though i disagree, I fear
I might join them to not rock the boat of the union.  Unions run deep and
they never forget either!

[WR]

Union posturing for sure! It seems to be the only way to get the CBSA moving on the arming issue. They have known for many moons that BSO's will be armed and they did not have any contingency plans or "warning order's" in place. They are starting from scratch.

Ask a Police Constable to attend any call unarmed and his backup maybe seconds or minutes away. How would they feel? There are several ports that it would take priority back up 45 minutes to attend. They are forced to rely on the USCBS or the local US Police for support. I work in Windsor, the Police HQ is 200m away, and it has taken several minutes for them to attend for priority assistance. They also have a job to protect the municipality and not just us. Ask a worker in the factories to work unsafe, it would never happen. Yes we guard the borders, but I also have a wife and baby to go home to and at the end of the day, that is most important.

I feel cowardly and like I am shirking my duties and responsibilities when I have been a part work refusal. I also know that pressure from the public and industry, not the officer's themselves is what is going to force the Agency to accelerate their 10 year plan.

Everything is starting from scratch, but from the information coming out so far is that training program is supposed to be shadowing the US Homeland Security training. They are said to have the best training in the US. Which is a pleasant surprise, as it seems they are planning on training us to a high standard.

NB
There is a hiring frenzy going on right now country wide for Post Secondary graduates, look on the CBSA website or PM me for info.

[GUNS]

I have no problem with border guards being armed but I have to ask this question. I has only been recently that the border guards have started to leave the post, my question  is, Why now and not before?

One thing for certain and that is, when these people finally get their sidearms, they will be crying for a major pay raise because they are wearing sidearms.

One more point, when the bad guys try to cross the border, knowing that our border guards are unarmed, they have no reason to do them harm. Put a sidearm on our border guards and he/she becomes a obstacle and a target

[gate_guard]

WR, thanks for adding thread, its always good to hear from someone on the inside.

It sounds like some people are expecting the job of a border guard to be that much safer once they are armed. I can't argue that they shouldn't be armed, I'd quit if told to turn in my duty sidearm. That being said, if a & d suspect wants to kill you, aside from employing good officer safety tactics, there isn't much you can do. A police officer once arrested a suspect after questioning him for a few minutes. Upon searching him after handcuffing he found a loaded pistol in the back of his waistband. The guy could have shot the officer at any point before being arrested and handcuffed. Take that anecdote however you want, in the end, being armed doesn't equate to being invincible.

[ThainC]

Well... having to had wait 3 1/2 to come back to Canada after spending a weekend in Oregon (picked up some Oakleys too, Woot!), I was not impressed.  They haven't had a need before, and yet now they do (yes, I realize as threats change...).  I just think arming our guards adds an extra factor, which, when not there may keep them safe.  If someone trying to run the border doesn't feel threatened by the guards in their current unarmed state, then I would like to think less harm would come.

Additionally, if someone is trying to run the border, and suspects they may be busted, they probably have their weapon of choice ready, as opposed to a possibly unsuspecting border guard whose reading out from his booth.  How hard is it to let the vehicle pass, and then contact the RCMP? And though I am not sure, I suspect the US would help in a situation as well, though, I don't work for Canada Customs, so I am not sure.  My friend works at the Airport, and all around he thinks arming our guards isn't the best route, but he has his own reasons.

Just thoughts is all... just thoughts.

[WR]

Gate_Guard
I don't believe my job will be safer if I am armed, but it will not be more dangerous. I have several times taken a handgun from somebody concealed on their person and that person was a convicted violent criminal. Why they did not fight, probably because they thought they would loose due to officer presence. Most people from the states and quite a few from Canada already believe we are armed. Last year I took a loaded revolver from a convicted murder from Detroit, when asked by the Correctional Officers in the County jail why he did not shoot himself out of the situation, he replied, "he did not want his girlfriend hurt in the crossfire". When he was told that we were not armed, he cursed and stated he should have shot me and my partner and went back to the States. Another situation; A female Officer was examining a car alone (it was busy night and we were understaffed). While examining the car, she observed a couple of bullet holes in the car, the car was freshly painted (with a roller) and during the exam she found indicators of narcotics. She called for assistance and the 3 males from Chicago, who were obvious gang members, became agitated. One male said out loud to the others, "she doesn't have a gun". One male then pulled a semi-automatic handgun from his pocket and started to point it at her; she grabbed his arm and started to fight for her life. We arrived and we were able to disarm the male and arrest all 3 subjects. It was found out later that the subjects had committed a murder in Chicago from doing a drive by. They were turned over to CPD and they were convicted of 1st degree murder.
So I don't believe the criminals will be easier on us because we are not armed. I think we need it to protect ourselves and the public.

Thainc
I do apologize for you having to wait 3 1/2 hours, but sometimes the innocents must suffer. In this case the ends do justify the means. We have always had a need to be armed, more so in the past 6 years. Customs has had the ability to enforce the Criminal Code since 2000. We now regularly arrest people for warrants, impaired driving, firearms etc. So our hazards at work have increased ten fold. We are not grocery cops anymore, concerned about how much turkey and cheese you have.
Think of it this way. A bad guy crosses the border, I talk to him, identify him as a bad guy and I release him because I do not have the tools to apprehend him. He is released from the border and I contact the local Police. In my situation the local Police HQ is 200m away. Our port runners still get away regularly, because there are too many places to hide. That bad guy enters the town you live in and hurts someone who is dear to you or someone you know. How are you going to feel knowing I could have stopped him? I use the example of Charles NG, he was a serial killer from California who was identified as a bad guy at a border crossing in BC, he was released and he committed several crimes in Canada. He shot a security guard in Calgary and it took several years for him to get extradited back to the states. It went as high as our Supreme Court. If he would have been apprehended at a point of entry, he would have been returned to the US immediately.
Your friend at the airport, no offense to Officer's who work at an airport, but he works in a sterile environment where everybody has gone through security. The environment of a land border is %100 differant.

[HDE]

I think the Customs and Excise Union is going to be pretty careful in how it uses the arming of the Customs Officers.  If it tries to use it as a claim that large pay increases are justified because they're become defacto police officers the public may well demand that the training, qualifications, work conditions, etc. are at the same level as police officers.  What impact would that have on the job?

[WR]

The CBSA are not defacto Police, but they a do job similar to them. I will concede that the hiring practice needs to be improved, but what is wrong with the training? Ask Zipperhead, in Windsor a regular uniformed BSO's regularly attends courses  that only specialized or senior Police Officer's get to attend. What is different from my work environment/qualifications to that of the Police? I don't believe there is much difference.

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Neither do I WR, if it helps getting you guys the tools/training you need to do your part in keeping us all safe then keep up the pressure. 

Good luck.
Bruce

[MedTech]

IMHO, BSO do need to be armed. Currently they have a police defensive baton (Read ASP), hand cuffs, and OC spray. These are woefully inadequate at borders  sometimes. Lets shift focus for a minute to the Sear ports. CBSA also have narc teams and container examination teams that routinely board ships foreign and domestic. I think some of the NBP members on here could probably tell you things could go sour in a very short period of time while they're on a ship, yet the CBSA members don't have the luxury of defending themselves IF and WHEN things go sour. It's pretty silly to think you can fight a CQB on board a ship with nothing but a PDB and OC.

At to the point of pay increase. CBSA BSOs have been underpaid for the amount of work they do since day one. A constable who enforces only a handfull of legislation, are paid more in their 4 years of pay progression, then does a BSO who enforces upwards to 15+ pieces of legilstation which also includes parts of the Immigration act when travellers approach them at the primary inspection line, and other things ranging from Food Inspection to CITES for endangered animals. Should they be paid more? YES. Should they be paid more because they are armed? YES. However, the yes to the second question should be because they've always been underpaid for the amount of work that they do.

I think WR can attest to the fact that especially at Land Borders, because there isnt an over abundent number of Immigration Officers, they may have to enforce more and not have the luxury of sending them to the Immigration sections at the International Airports.

[WR]

who enforces upwards to 15+ pieces of legalization which also includes parts of the Immigration act when travellers approach them at the primary inspection line, and other things ranging from Food Inspection to CITES for endangered animals.

First of all Thank you Bruce and MedTech, but MedTech we enforce or administer 91 acts of Parliament

[MedTech]

First of all Thank you Bruce and Medic, but Medic we enforce or administer 91 acts of Parliament

sorry  I couldnt remember exactly how man, but hey 15+ does include 90 right? 

[WR]

If you want to be technical....

[MedTech]

If you want to be technical....

 

[HDE]

Apparently BSOs are paid something in the range of $55,000 per year, whereas a Mountie is paid about $70,000,  so it appears the jobs are not considered
equivalent and having a sidearm issued probably doesn't close the gap.   There are all sorts of issues in determining what a particular job pays and simply saying a BSO is "underpaid" doesn't carry much weight.  How many months of training is required relative to a Mountie?  Do BSOs routinely get transferred to postings aanywhere in most of Canada?  Does being in the union allow more room to not perform/ dispute orders?  Is there the same competitive process/selectiveness  to get taken on as a BSO as there is to be accepted as a Mountie?    Traditionally large numbers of university students, with even less training than a regular BSO,  have been taken on to cover the summer period so the claim that the job is as dangerous/complex as that of a police officer is a stretch.