Author Topic: CBSA arming  (Read 34161 times)

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Offline MedTech

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #175 on: November 21, 2008, 18:58:46 »
Um... No it's two completely different things. The reasons are different as well. Anyways it's too long to go into on a crackberry typing interface. If WR comes back maybe he can better explain it.
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Offline WR

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #176 on: November 24, 2008, 14:39:45 »
"Currently" CBSA does not have any long guns/assault weapons, but it will happen. When??? I do not know, but it is on the radar.
Every boat that is boarded a risk assessment is done and if the risk is that high, an RCMP marine boarding party will attend first and when clear, the CBSA will take over. We do not have sufficient training in high risk entries, nor the tools to complete that task (and probably won't for years to come).
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Offline IrishCanuck

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #177 on: December 10, 2008, 04:40:24 »
"Currently" CBSA does not have any long guns/assault weapons, but it will happen. When??? I do not know, but it is on the radar.
Every boat that is boarded a risk assessment is done and if the risk is that high, an RCMP marine boarding party will attend first and when clear, the CBSA will take over. We do not have sufficient training in high risk entries, nor the tools to complete that task (and probably won't for years to come).

(Bit of a revival)

But it's coming slowly... I dont know what your work location is (marine?) but there is a slow but gradual increase in all things enforcement oriented, including much more CBSA involved prosecutions, in some cases now just having the responding police agency hold the subject while we take care of court transport, briefings etc etc. I think that will be one of the biggest measurements of the direction the agency is headed in.. if we become more self-sufficient in CA and CCC enforcement and prosecution the ball will keep rolling forward with new initiatives.. if not... well... boo.
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #178 on: December 10, 2008, 18:33:29 »
It is a logical end state, but unfortunately forces the question "will it occur before or after a major incident"?

Offline MedTech

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #179 on: December 11, 2008, 09:49:25 »
MUCH later afterwards...
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Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #180 on: December 17, 2008, 19:54:44 »
I would say sooner, saw a couple of postings on the federal job website, for an "Enforcement Assistant" for the CBSA, whose duties is to basically steer/handle all the paperwork, for prosecutions.  So I think the days of handing stuff off to the Mounties/Locals is coming.

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #181 on: December 17, 2008, 22:17:40 »
I would say sooner, saw a couple of postings on the federal job website, for an "Enforcement Assistant" for the CBSA, whose duties is to basically steer/handle all the paperwork, for prosecutions.  So I think the days of handing stuff off to the Mounties/Locals is coming.

I think there was a disconnect between

CBSA on the Immigration side has always handled the prosecutions or detention cases when it comes to individuals who have violated the IRPA. Enforcement Assistants do not steer/handle all the paperwork for prosecutions. They do do allot of the clerical side of things, but the Minister's Delegate or Enforcement Officers and Hearings Officers are the ones steering/handling the case files.
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Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #182 on: December 18, 2008, 20:31:56 »
Well then I stand corrected

Offline Yrys

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #183 on: January 25, 2009, 22:04:07 »
Border agency misses target on firearm records: audit, CP

OTTAWA  -- An internal review found records were "missing or incomplete"
for almost half of cases in which newly armed Canadian border agents
drew their guns.

And border officers in one region were completely unaware they had to send
reports to headquarters on incidents involving force, including use of weapons
such as pepper spray and batons.

"This may result in information on incidents not being reviewed, incomplete
data on the use of force and no followup or investigation taken to address
serious concerns," says the Canada Border Services Agency audit completed
in October. "Therefore, the agency may not analyze breaches of policy and
ensure corrective action is taken when systemic problems become evident."

The lapses were among early growing pains cited in the report on the agency's
ongoing initiative to arm border officers. While the auditors found "reasonable
progress had been made" in putting the program's building blocks in place,
there was also room for improvement on setting use-of-force policies, training
staff, assessing the various risks, and tracking ammunition and spare firearms.

The audit made several recommendations for improvement and spelled out plans
by the border services agency to deal with the glitches over the next two years.

Border officers have been provided in recent years with handcuffs, pepper spray,
batons, protective vests and use-of-force training to help them enforce the law.
Three years ago the Conservative government announced a 10-year plan to train
and equip 4,800 officers to carry firearms -- an initiative long rejected as
unnecessary by the Liberals. Almost 500 officers were instructed in gun use
from July 2007 through last June.

The review was done to nip any problems with the controversial program in the bud.

The auditors looked at 23 incidents from July 2007 to April 2008 -- 10 involving
guns and 13 randomly selected events concerning general use of force. Of the
firearm incidents, six files contained the necessary documentation. In the other
four cases, review reports were missing or documentation had not been signed
by the officers involved.

The audit also found the border agency's procedures were vague on what officers
"are permitted to do, expected to do or prohibited from doing" in situations
involving use of pepper spray and batons. "Management advised that detailed
guidance on administering general use of force would be provided in training
packages that are being developed."

Tracie LeBlanc, a spokeswoman for the border services agency, said that
whenever officers use force the agency reviews the matter and confirms
if standards and protocols were followed and identifies any discrepancies
and required actions. LeBlanc added that border officers are "well aware
of situations in which force may be used, and are trained in the proper
use and application of force."

In each of the 23 cases in which officers used force, proper procedures
were followed during the actual incidents, the audit says. Though
employees have pulled guns from their holsters, none has fired one on
duty, said Ron Moran, national president of the Customs Excise Union,
which represents border officers.

Moran said he was generally pleased with the arming program's
implementation, and took issue with the notion that use-of-force training
was lacking. But Moran said he was surprised the audit didn't mention
that officers took firearm training at congested ranges in Ottawa and
Chilliwack, B.C. It means officers are sometimes on the ranges at 2 or
3 a.m. after being in class all day, he said. "It's just an accident waiting
to happen."

The audit says there was initial confusion over whether officers were
required to wear their guns during meal and rest breaks, as well as
whether employees on extended leave could keep their firearms.

The auditors also found a need to prepare officers who don't carry
guns for situations when they find themselves caught up in the middle
of altercations between colleagues with firearms and members of the
public. Delays in entering data about training and inventory, along with
"problems regarding user friendliness," meant regional branches of the
border agency were bypassing the central computer system and setting
up their own databases -- a wasteful duplication of effort.

The border agency has developed and is now using a national information
system that provides access to timely, comprehensive arming data, LeBlanc
said.

The report also reveals a full assessment of risks associated with the arming
initiative won't be complete until April.

Louvre website

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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #184 on: January 27, 2009, 08:13:43 »
That is the best they could come up with?  Bad staff work?  Are these the same idiots that acted like there would be a Barney Fife-esque feu de joix (sp, sorry Franco's) once the guns were taken out of the boxes? 
Sounds to me like the program has been quite successful and the personnel are being trained to USE the weapons properly.  Not reporting back to some quail hearted bureaucrat so they can armchair street level decisions isn't the worst thing in the world. 
(none of which is aimed at you, Yrys, just in case I came off wrong)
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Offline Yrys

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #185 on: January 27, 2009, 08:47:06 »
(none of which is aimed at you, Yrys, just in case I came off wrong)

As you didn't speak of me, but of the "quail hearted bureaucrat", I didn't think you were
aiming at me  :D.
Louvre website

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Offline IrishCanuck

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #186 on: January 27, 2009, 19:51:28 »
And the battle between client services and the enforcement branch continues.... ::)
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Offline MedTech

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #187 on: January 28, 2009, 11:10:22 »
You mean... They're NOT on the same team?! Say it ain't so!
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Offline IrishCanuck

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #188 on: January 28, 2009, 17:11:18 »
 :D

Well client services has to scratch and claw for every budget dollar they can get, for fear of enforcement actually becoming the main priority, and not "client faciliation".

Case in point, border wait times.
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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #189 on: January 28, 2009, 21:10:01 »
:D

Well client services has to scratch and claw for every budget dollar they can get, for fear of enforcement actually becoming the main priority, and not "client faciliation".

Case in point, border wait times.

You mean the tax collectors ;)
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Offline MedTech

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #190 on: January 28, 2009, 23:15:43 »
:D

Well client services has to scratch and claw for every budget dollar they can get, for fear of enforcement actually becoming the main priority, and not "client faciliation".

Case in point, border wait times.

Pffffft :D get the client services guys to put on a uniform and a sba... THEN get them to go stand a watch at a POE, preferably a REMOTE POE and a LAND one at that. Let's see them try and 'facilitate' the first drunken... person that's got a firearm on them trying to access land border.
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Offline IrishCanuck

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #191 on: January 29, 2009, 21:50:59 »
Pffffft :D get the client services guys to put on a uniform and a sba... THEN get them to go stand a watch at a POE, preferably a REMOTE POE and a LAND one at that. Let's see them try and 'facilitate' the first drunken... person that's got a firearm on them trying to access land border.

Preaching to the choir.

Doesn't help POERT is full of "facilitation" and seemingly avoiding taking charge of persons and situations at all costs.

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Offline WR

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #192 on: August 23, 2010, 21:45:47 »
http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Border+guards+firearms+trainer+fired+union+calls+move+vindictive/3419621/story.html

order guards' firearms trainer fired; union calls move 'vindictive'
 
 
BY CHRIS COBB, OTTAWA CITIZENAUGUST 19, 2010
 
 
OTTAWA — The firearms expert chosen to supervise the weapons training of Canada's border guards has been dismissed by the Canadian Border Service Agency in what his lawyer says is "vindictive and unfair" treatment.

RCMP Sgt. Richard Groulx, one of Canada's leading firearms trainers, appears to have been unwittingly caught in a bitter dispute between the border guards' union and senior agency managers in Ottawa.

Groulx remains employed by the RCMP but is now fighting to continue the secondment to CBSA, which began almost four years ago when he was hand-picked to lead the firearms training of the country's 4,800 border guards.

The union-management dispute is over the arming of customs officers who are asked to take part in joint search operations with the RCMP and other police forces.

The union says trained guards should be allowed to carry their weapons when asked by other forces to take part in joint operations but CBSA hierarchy opposes the move, apparently for legal reasons.

When CBSA instigates its own searches, guards are armed.

Lawyer James Cameron represented a Montreal border guard in a test case at the federal Occupational Health and Safety Tribunal earlier this year. The guard had refused to take part — unarmed — in an operation with Montreal police, claiming his life was at risk.

To help bolster the guard's case, Cameron subpoenaed Groulx, who testified that the weapons training given to border guards is likely superior to that of the RCMP.

Although Groulx had no choice but to respond to the subpoena, Cameron says that senior CBSA managers are punishing him for doing so.

Cameron is now representing Groulx and has filed a complaint to the Public Service Labour Relations Board accusing CBSA of violating the Canadian Labour Code.

Under the code, it is illegal for an employer to dismiss, suspend, lay off or demote an employee for testifying at such a hearing.

Groulx, who designed the border guards' training program, wants to keep his secondment until the work with CBSA is finished. If the Labour Relations Board rejects his complaint, he will be replaced at the end of this month.

"It's vindictive," lawyer Cameron said. "The only reason his secondment was terminated early was because he told the truth under subpoena from me. He had no choice but to appear and is being penalized for saying nothing more than these trained guards can handle themselves in any situation."

Groulx would not comment.

The CBSA would not discuss the Groulx case or explain why they had apparently asked for his removal but a spokesperson said the training agreement with the RCMP will end in less than two years.

"In February 2010 the CBSA announced to its staff that the use of the RCMP for firearms related training would begin to be phased out," the official said in an email.

"The CBSA will gradually phase out the use of the RCMP and end all RCMP related assignments by March 31, 2012. The CBSA is now in the stage of phasing in independent selection, certification and monitoring of its firearms and control and defensive tactics training."

However, according to the complaint filed with the Public Service Labour Relations Board, another RCMP officer has already been seconded to replace Groulx at the CBSA.

According to the written complaint filed at the Public Service Labour Relations Board, Groulx was told by his RCMP superiors that the CBSA hierarchy was "upset" when it heard he was going to appear as a witness in the hearing over joint operations.

No date is set for Groulx's labour relations board hearing but the federal Occupational Health and Safety Tribunal is expected to rule soon on the joint operations issue.

The Harper government passed legislation five years ago that allowed the arming of border guards.

The first were deployed in July 2007 in Surrey, B.C., and Fort Erie, Ont., and now, about 1,500 of the 4,800 border guard force is armed. All are expected to be trained and armed by 2016.

But their union president Ron Moran claims that senior CBSA bureaucrats were against the move and that their resistance to joint operation arming is their "last stand."

The guards say that once firearms have become an integral part of their training, they are risking their lives by going into dangerous joint operations without their weapons.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen
 
 
 Sgt Groulx is recognized internationally for his abilities and it just shows CBSA's senior management inability to accept how the agency has progressed.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 21:49:18 by WR »
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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #193 on: August 27, 2010, 02:39:29 »
No good deed goes unpunished. 

Gotta love working for hand-wringers.   ::)
God loves stupid people.  That's why He made so many of them.

Of course forests contribute to climate change - you pointless, vacuous wankers.

Offline Jim Seggie

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #194 on: August 27, 2010, 07:20:47 »
Hand wringers....or the lace panty crowd, most of which are men.
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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #195 on: September 01, 2010, 10:23:13 »
Hand wringers....or the lace panty crowd, most of which are men male.

There, fixed it for you.  Sadly. 
God loves stupid people.  That's why He made so many of them.

Of course forests contribute to climate change - you pointless, vacuous wankers.

Offline Colin P

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Re: CBSA arming
« Reply #196 on: September 01, 2010, 12:25:54 »
No good deed goes unpunished. 

Gotta love working for hand-wringers.   ::)

Sadly not surprised by this either, it's far to typical of the Public Service these days.