Author Topic: CBSA arming  (Read 38352 times)

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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2006, 15:48:37 »
Quite right.  It's like a story Rob Reuters told us on a Pipline/Convoy drug interdiction course.  He was at a fairly remote location in Manitoba, along the Trans Canada.  He was way ahead of the curve in Canada for commercial drug interdiction, and when he started to pick off big hauls, all of a sudden it looked like [Insert small village name here], Manitoba had a drug problem.  So they moved him out of there, and, presto!  [small village name here] doesn't have a drug problem anymore.  I completely agree that somebody somewhere really wants to keep Canada looking like some sort of public service announcement, rather than confront the organized crime and terrorism issues that we have here.  When I run people on CPIC, my computer allows me to run people NCIC, the American federal computer system for law enforcement.  To date, I have come across four area residents that are on the Homeland Security Terror Watch List as being active participants in supporting known terrorist organizations.  These aren't just guys that got photographed outside of a flag burning rally, these are real players. 
Hows this for a conspiracy theory:  Organized crime has long ago identified Canada as being weak on crime and having "the longest undefended (read: unsupervised) border in the world".  In order to facilitate smooth operations, they have located here, and quietly support socialist organizations and left oriented MP's who in turn appoint socialist judges.  All elements work to keep the country soft on enforcement and provide an unfettered playground for criminals and terrorists. 
People are ready to turn Syria into a parking lot for letting so much crap through their borders into Iraq.  I would love to get a hard number on people, drugs and weapons from there, and compare it to our own border situation (non-port, illegal entries).  I'm betting we would blow them away (stats wise, not the righteous rounds and ordinance way [soon, baby, soon]) .

I get a big feeling that most Canadians just don't want to believe we are at risk. If we smile and don't carry guns and be nice to everyone then somehow the bad guys will just leave us alone. Many are so worried about not 'looking American' that we are willing to put ourselves at risk.

Most Canadians are misinformed--thank you CBC and Toronto Star!  Canadians have some fairly solid core values, like wanting to be safe, and not provide a haven for a$$hats.  Initially you will have your hippie a-holes screaming Big Brother and Slippery Slope and other such rhetoric because they want to be able to hike and observe the chartruse, leafy toed, three bump newt in its natural habitat without ever seeing a human for the month they are skulking around in the woods.  Once this stuff starts getting out, though, the normal Canadians will start to think "Damn, maybe there is a problem".  And even more regrettably, it will probably be someone being killed at the Border that ram rods this thing forward.  We can only hope that it isn't one of our guys.
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Offline WR

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2006, 22:50:54 »
Sorry for responding to some to a few posts back, but a colicky 6 week old is keeping me busy... :crybaby:

Caesar I do apologize for stating that you have a "hate on" for BSO's, I believe now you are misinformed. The Statement of quals you listed is correct, but there is much more to the process than that. It states that successful completion of the Border Services Officer Training and Assessment Program for new recruits at the Border Services Learning Centre in Rigaud, Quebec. In Riguad the use of force and "officer powers (criminal code) is taught in the very beginning, if you cannot pass both successfully, you fail and go home. Before you take the interview the board will give you some paperwork with the job description. In that it will state, using force for to effect an arrest, handle firearms (that is why a PALS is required so the applicant will have rudimentary knowledge of firearms, we handle A LOT of firearms). It goes on to say we may have to work in a hazardous or dangerous environment. Dealing with aggressive and violent clients. If the applicant cannot agree to perform all functions, the interview stops and the recruiting process stops.
Our use of force instructors go to the RCMP Depot in Regina, they are on the same instructors course as the Police. They must do a re-qualification yearly in Regina. If you read any Police force's statement of qual's it says nothing about firearms, deadly force etc. it talks more of Community Service etc.

I would say there is some validity to your statement that most legacy Customs Inspectors are more in line with your average Civil Servant, and not say, Police Officers. That statement would have been true 10 years ago, today I can say I see more drugs, guns, money, terrorists than the majority of cops. In 5 1/2 years since the BSO's have been authorized to enforce the CC I have probably have arrested 25-30 drivers and obtained  convictions for impaired driving. The majority of those were in the first 2 years, I am not the exception or a "robo cop" I am the norm for my region, an average officer. We do not respond to car accidents and and do not handle the amount of domestics that a patrol officer would deal with, but I will deal with some situations that a patrol officer would never encounter. These days it is easy to say that BSO's are MORE in line with Police Officer's than civil servants. Saturday night they took a .25 cal from the pocket of a Detroit gang member, with several convictions for drugs and violence, when they went to get the weapon out of his pocket, he fought them. No one got hurt, but it does not sound like what a "run of the mill civil servant" or a "tax clerk" would do

I would probably quit and run for the hills if they armed every BSO, there are people there that should not have a sharpened pencil as they would hurt themselves and everyone around them. I do believe that the vast majority of BSO's would conduct themselves in a very professional manner if they were armed.

Having any military personal at the border will NEVER happen. If it takes several years to arm the officer's at the border, the gov't will not accept the military. Remember the Liebrals attack ad "Soldiers in the city, with GUNS". The US, even right after 9/11 did not arm the reserves or National Guard. They were working at all border points, they were there to assist the Officer's, but they were unarmed. The US has used armed soldiers on their southern border, but that is a completely different world.
I can see Blackhorse 7's idea being feasible, using Coyotes with a surv package, but not one crewman would have any weapons. It is needed out west as they are just walking back and forth at will. I can forsee that happening, I actually am surprised it has happened yet.

On the rumour net at work, it is going around at the management level that they have already started the initial process of building a range in Rigaud, the CBSA College.
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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #77 on: January 29, 2006, 23:15:04 »
I have probably have arrested 25-30 drivers and obtained  convictions for impaired driving. The majority of those were in the first 2 years, I am not the exception or a "robo cop" I am the norm for my region, an average officer.
Your'e a maniac with a Draeger, you menace.   Nice to see you back in the "game".
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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2006, 01:59:55 »
Here is an excerpt from the Northgate Report, a study commissioned to look into the need for arming Border Services Officers:

Inherent High Risk Environment (Officer and Public Safety)
The number and frequency of Officers engaged in risk of injury situations are riddled
throughout this Report. From assaults, to intimidation, to being taken hostage, these
Officers are faced with a daily reality – the risk to their lives and to the Canadian public is
an everyday fact exacerbated by the unpredictability of human behaviour.
Unpredictable travellers are presenting themselves for inspection in an intoxicated (and
therefore unpredictable) state, with warrants active for their arrest, with firearms, drugs
and other contraband on their person or in their vehicle, and on a less frequent basis are
fugitives from justice. Again, this Report provides ample accounts of such lifethreatening
incidents. The Northgate Study confirmed what front-line Officers, CEUDA
and others have been expressing for years; what transpires at the POE, or what doesn’t,
is not simply a matter of Officer safety. Rather, the border is a point of examination,
interdiction and enforcement and what “gets through” creates a public safety and
security risk for Canadians.
CBSA policy mandates that Officers, when faced with a dangerous person, allow the
suspect entry and immediately call the police. This “Withdraw Policy” permits
unhindered entry into Canada of persons who are dangerous or are deliberately seeking
to avoid interception. This CBSA policy simply passes the responsibility of
apprehending such dangerous persons to the RCMP or another responding police
agency whose response times, on the whole, are incredibly inadequate. Officers
interviewed, however, do not fault their respective responding police agencies. Officers
stated those agencies are understaffed and are frequently tasked with patrolling vast
areas. The likelihood of there being an immediate police capacity to deal with the entry
of hostile, armed, and dangerous persons is, to say the least, remote.
Northgate shares the view that this is a policy that jeopardizes both Officer and public
safety and that should be immediately revoked. Accordingly, Northgate has made
recommendations for an armed border patrol (Recommendation #7) and that Officers
not allow Armed and Dangerous persons into the country (Recommendation #9).
As an example of Officer and public safety concerns, the Study describes, in Chapter 4,
the commercial off-site warehouse in Windsor, Ontario. Trucks identified as needing
further inspection are directed to a warehouse 3.4 kilometres from the Bridge on the
“honour system”. CBSA has made modest efforts at curtailing the number of trucks that
do not report to the warehouse under this “honour system” by instituting patrols of Huron
Church Road. These patrols are staffed with Border Services Officers whose task is to
accost drivers whose trucks are parked on the side of the road, and to inquire as to their
delay in reporting to the warehouse. By approaching a parked truck on the side of the
road, Officers are at serious risk of interrupting a drug/contraband transaction. Such
transactions are indeed occurring, as verified by statements from RIOs in Windsor who
have been told by their informants that every sort of contraband imaginable is being
dropped off, purchased, sold, and delivered within sight of the Bridge.


And that is one page of 187, and that is only looking at one little part of my personal piece of the pie.
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Offline Adam_18

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2006, 04:02:40 »
unbelievable...using an honor system when dealing with suspected weapon/drug/ hell people smugglers ?...I'm just graduating high school and i think thats a **** way to go...

Then to top it off they want the officers to not only deal with these criminals (who if they have their **** wired are armed), but to do it with only some mace and a batton...i only hope we don't get a border crossing version of Mayerthorp Alberta to realise that these officers need firearms.

Adam
 

Offline TCBF

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #80 on: January 30, 2006, 04:03:29 »
"I can see Blackhorse 7's idea being feasible, using Coyotes with a surv package, but not one crewman would have any weapons. ..."

- Then it would not happen.  The crews would be armed, or not go.

Tom
"Disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda."   - Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axeworthy at a Gun Control conference in Oslo, Norway in 1998.


"I didn’t feel that it was an act of violence; you know, I felt that it was an act of liberation, that’s how I felt you know." - Ann Hansen, Canadian 'Urban Guerrilla'(one of the "Squamish Five")

Offline fredranger

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #81 on: January 30, 2006, 19:18:33 »
Hello, I just signed up here, so give me a little time to get into the groove of things. I believe that our border guards do need to be armed, but only after some serious attention is drawn towards training. Some of the current employees would probably pass a firearms safety, and proficiency course. Some, I believe, would not. I am not suggesting a major overhaul of this system, but a review of how things have (and have not) been done. I mean, if conservation officers, who appear to be as, if not better, equipped and trained as the RCMP, then I do believe a lit time invested in our border situation would pay off in the end.

Offline Blackhorse7

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #82 on: January 30, 2006, 19:39:51 »
I mean, if conservation officers, who appear to be as, if not better, equipped and trained as the RCMP...
Better equipped, maybe...(they have a better pistol, but thats about it...)

Better trained, I would have to disagree with.  RCMP training, and indeed ongoing training is recognized as some of the best Law Enforcement training in the world.  But our place is not in border security enforcement.  Investigation of border offences (ie:  smuggling, cross-border drug trade) is where our duties lay.
Only the hard have the luxury of appearing soft.

Offline fredranger

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #83 on: January 30, 2006, 20:01:53 »
Well, having been apart of the Edmonton Police Service, I have personally seen a B.C. Cons Off pull some nice physical moves on a would be poacher, and not the ones you would see on the WWE wrestling. As it goes for investigation of border offences, yes, that is just part of what their mandate requires of them. http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/agency/menu-e.html  clearly shows that what has been written, and what is being done, don't match up. When you abandon your post because you fear for your personal safety, and are unable to perform your  national security duties, then something has broken down.

Offline Blackhorse7

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #84 on: January 30, 2006, 20:04:29 »
Oh, don't worry... I agree 100% with that.  I have long said that our border guards should be armed.  And along with that, properly trained.  Just look at some of the things that get seized at the border.... (shudder...)
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Offline WR

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #85 on: January 30, 2006, 21:05:16 »
It is very embarrassing to "run away" from a real or perceived threat, but it is a necessary action. The government has to be forced into acting before Officer's die unnecessarily. Officer's want to intercept the bad guys, but as a new father I will not risk my life for something that is preventable. CBSA cannot rely on the RCMP for security or assistance, they are overwhelmed...to much work and to little money & personal. The members have the will and the ability, but it appears to be like the CBSA. They do not have support from their  hierarchy and their Minister.
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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #86 on: January 31, 2006, 00:42:24 »
I would be more concerned with working with a guy who stayed in his booth as an incoming American real life "cops and robbers" vehicle shoot out was rolling towards him.  I think it goes without saying that if you are in a fire fight with the police, you may have "something to declare".  If you are not armed, get the hell out of there.  There is a nice little photo machine that will catch the plate as the car zips through. 
It is not cowardice, it is common sense.
God loves stupid people.  That's why He made so many of them.

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Offline Adam_18

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #87 on: February 01, 2006, 01:01:09 »
One of the main points that has been raised here has been whether or not Customs officials would be willing/able to carry firearms and what to do with the ones who are not willing to carry, or don't qualify?

why can we not stick those officers in an airport, i believe a customs officer himself said that he worked in an airport and felt safe.

could that not be a feesable solution instead of firing or letting go those who couldn't qualify?

Adam

Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #88 on: February 01, 2006, 14:45:45 »
First off, I don't see anyone getting fired or let go if they won't pack heat. 
Second, I don't think it is quite fair to lob someone into Pearson who lives here in Windsor, who has their whole life and family here. 
I believe there are plenty of clerical jobs available.  Fire 'em at a desk.  Simple enough.
God loves stupid people.  That's why He made so many of them.

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Offline HDE

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #89 on: February 01, 2006, 22:49:43 »
I'd imagine the management would want some pretty serious power to assign armed officers whereever they're needed to assure coverage.  Certainly you wouldn't want a border crossing in the boonies without any armed officers and another one with all of the officers with sidearms. 

Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #90 on: February 02, 2006, 01:53:05 »
I believe that the idea is to have everyone armed, with possible allowances for current members to refuse if they feel the need to.  I can't imagine that number would exceed 5% of their current front line officers.
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Offline 3rd Herd

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #91 on: February 02, 2006, 10:14:50 »
CanWest Global News
February 2, 2006
07:00 Mtn time

One of British Columbia's smallest boarder crossing was shut down last night. The crossing at Rousville was manned by a probationary female customs personal. When reports came in about a armed suspect fleeing towards this tiny crossing being pursued by US authorities. The suspect is believed to have relatives in the Rousville area. She notified her superior by telephone, who then called the two regular male customs service personal in. The regular personal upon arriving at the crossing station deemed it unsafe and closed the crossing at 06:45 hrs this morning.

Yet again folks.
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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #92 on: February 02, 2006, 15:55:22 »
Is this a Customs thing or a gender thing?  I think the gender thing has been done sufficiently. 
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Offline 3rd Herd

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2006, 16:10:17 »
Is this a Customs thing or a gender thing?  I think the gender thing has been done sufficiently. 

Just a customs thing. Was typing as the newscast was airing and trying to get as much information into the post without my morning coffee first.
"if he was to be hanged for it, he told his brother, he could not accuse a man whom he believed had meant well, and whose error was one of judgment, not of intention"
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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #94 on: February 03, 2006, 14:33:24 »
Ahh, understandable and appropriate priorities.  Coffee first, always ;D

I would be interested to know what "closing" the border constitutes?  If they are putting out an orange pylon, then that is kind of lame.  If they are putting a couple of cube vans in the out and in lanes and hanging back with local police on site to grab the bad guy, then that sounds like a good plan. 
The bosses at CBSA need to come up with better border crasher solutions, guns notwithstanding(shooting at cars is generally not going to fly).  They need dragons teeth or pop up barricades for the border points because it is kind of impossible to stop something coming through as it is right now. 

No doubt with a over-qualified firebrand like this guy, with his obvious law enforcement credentials, they are being aggressively led into a new golden age of border safety:

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/agency/president/menu-e.html

(once again the need for a sarcasm-dedicated emoticon is noted)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2006, 23:29:23 by zipperhead_cop »
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #95 on: February 05, 2006, 08:41:57 »
A weatherman is in charge of cbsa?

Offline FastEddy

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #96 on: February 05, 2006, 09:02:12 »
A weatherman is in charge of cbsa?


Thats right, after all, all the qualified guys are working for the Quebec Liquor Board.

If nothing else we can feel sorry for the poor souls working in that Agency.

Cheers.
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Offline WR

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #97 on: May 02, 2006, 16:45:12 »
From the Budget;

Border security will see a significant cash injection, with $101 million to begin arming border officers and eliminating so-called work-alone posts, and another $202 million to implement a border strategy.  ;D:fifty:

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Offline AFireinside13

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #98 on: May 02, 2006, 19:33:57 »
Just a little response to those who do not want to be armed;
Perhaps they will have those officers who are unarmed partnered with an officer who is armed. 2 birds, 1 stone, no lone post and atleast someone is armed.
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Offline WR

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Re: Border guards call for armed patrol
« Reply #99 on: May 02, 2006, 19:39:52 »
There has been a risk assessment completed and it has been indicated that that is how the Agency will progress in arming the ports. It has been identified that the high risk ports will  be armed first (ie Windsor).  The risk assessment is what they used for officer Powers in 2000. Unfortunate for the "air side", they were at the bottom of the list, Land Borders were first.
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