Topic: restructure of Canada national security department

[Manimal]

i admit i don't know much about the system in place, but with all the talk from the people in the big seats, i don't believe they are doing enough.

at the top of this department, 1 person, called #1, outside of gov't, reports to the PM. not to MP's. this person is hired to run, create, and control committees.

Military role. a anti terrorist unit, trained with the same tactics and skills as the SAS train with and have used for many terrorist situations.
the unit would have to be sizable, but broken in to small units, with less skills then them, but more so then most of the MIL to back them with heavier power. reports to Mil who reports to #1

federal level CSIS, a task force for only terrorist, gathers outside info... like CIA. even works with CIA?

RCMP task force.... reports to #1 takes collective info of all provinces, works closely with CSIS

Provincial police, each province would have a terrorist task force, that is lead by FBI types, a group with sub groups in major cities. reports to RCMP task force head, who reports to #1

CCG get big guns lol

add thoughts, and remember, i came up with this with little info on what is set up, and it's 4am...lol

[Kal]

so where does the Communications Security Establishment (CSE) fit in this.  

[dutchie]

Don't foget armed transit cops with an Anti-Terror TF armed properly and avalable 24/7 within minutes of all subway stops/major bus routes.

This will all happen once someone blows up a dozen or so Canadians on a subway somewhere, but not before then. Hope I'm not on that subway.....

[mcnutt_p]

i admit i don't know much about the system in place, but with all the talk from the people in the big seats, i don't believe they are doing enough.

Military role. a anti terrorist unit, trained with the same tactics and skills as the SAS train with and have used for many terrorist situations.
the unit would have to be sizable, but broken in to small units, with less skills then them, but more so then most of the MIL to back them with heavier power. reports to Mil who reports to #1

federal level CSIS, a task force for only terrorist, gathers outside info... like CIA. even works with CIA?

Canada already has a unit along the same lines as the SAS it is JTF-2. CSIS is a federal level intel group that works in intelligance gather and even work inconjuction with the CIA and international intelligance bureaus

[Manimal]

LOL, what's CES?
don't know. like i said, it's the tired ramblings on the night shift.
is the JTF2 up the SAS standards? maybe in training, but SAS have so many years of practice, the training they do is INSANE, comparable to the SEALS for sure.

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Manimal:

You should stop typing now, since it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.  BTW, CSE = "Communications Security Establishment".  They have a website - try Google.

This thread is dangerously close to evolving (yet again) into one of "those" JTF-2 threads...

[mcnutt_p]

JTF-2 is trained just like the SAS. OPSEC does not allow us to be told what type of training that is done.

Most of JTF AFAIK come from with in the cbt arms and are highly trained.

McNutt

[Bruce Monkhouse]

CAN ANYONE SAVE THIS THREAD??

I would appreciate it.....

[mcnutt_p]

I'll try

Should Canada create a Department of Homeland Defence.

How should it be set up?

McNutt

[MCG]

A Department of National Security should include:

• RCMP
• CCG
• CSE
• CSIS
• CBSA
• PSEPC

Some thoughts on this topic have already been raised in the Caost Guard thread: http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,32547.0.html

[Infanteer]

Do we want all these organizations under one hand?  I know Edward has raised the point a few times (WRT Intelligence establishments) about preventing incestuous relationship between vital but separate state security apparatii.

Is a "Security Czar" the answer?

[Manimal]

Manimal:

You should stop typing now, since it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.   BTW, CSE = "Communications Security Establishment".   They have a website - try Google.

This thread is dangerously close to evolving (yet again) into one of "those" JTF-2 threads...

i fully admitted in the two posts i put here that i don't know what exactly these agagencieso, or how they work. i'm trying to take this beyond a JTF 2 thread, they how ever would be a part of national department. what it comes down too, should there be a department, and how should it be structured. look back over the FBI under Hoover, it was dirty, but it got the job done.

[Teddy Ruxpin]

You did indeed admit your lack of knowledge, then proceeded to comment on (and compare) the training of various special forces units.  There are very few people in Canada who (IMHO) are qualified to do that - even serving CF members.

I'm no old hand on this site, but even I have seen threads rapidly degenerate into nonsense as soon as special forces are mentioned.

Enough from me - back to your discussion at hand.

[MCG]

I would imagine that CSE & CSIS could be seperated out.   CSE & CSIS would form a Canadian Intelligence Agnecy (CIA).   That would leave the DNS with the principle agencies responsible for domestic action, DND would have the principle responsibility for international actions, and the CCIA would maintain both international & domestic information responsibilities.   Alternately, Some elements of this could be inter-departmental agencies (shared by DND & DNS).   

[MCG]

i'm trying to take this beyond a JTF 2 thread, they how ever would be a part of national department. what it comes down too, should there be a department, and how should it be structured.

The JTF2 rightfully has no place in this discussion.  It is an element of the CF and should remain as such.

What should be examined is the coordination between DND and a DNS.  Liaison officers should be exchanged between the departments.  Canada Command would be the ideal command to do this permanent link.

[Teddy Ruxpin]

MCG:

In fact, the LO exchange is already being done on an operational level.  What you're talking about would extend it to the strategic.  I do know, for instance, that we have LOs within the RCMP and are obviously intertwined with PSEPC.

At the operational level, we currently have LOs designated by province and located in each provincial capital.  These would likely continue with the new JTF structure.  CANADACOM could act as the strategic link at the national level.

[Acorn]

All of those orgs, including DND, have representation on the Privy Council Office intelligence section. The PCO is the "clearing house," and while it isn't the same as the Brit JIC, it performs a similar function.

CSE is under DND, and should remain there for a variety of reasons (a pool of SIGINT expertise, for one).

CSIS is a security service, not a foreign intelligence gathering service. I think it would be a mistake to merge the two functions under CSIS, as they can often clash with each other. As much as CSIS would like to believe they could expand to carry out the foreign int collection function, it would still take them as much time as it would to create an effective independent service - around 10 years would be my guess. The benefits of creating an independent service to collect foreign int outweigh any short term advantage of trying to use exisiting CSIS officers (or other exisiting collection assets) in that role.

I also believe that the creation of a "Canadian Homeland Security Department" (beyond what we already have) is a needless addition of bureaucracy.

Acorn

[Kal]

The JTF2 rightfully has no place in this discussion.   It is an element of the CF and should remain as such.

     So should a new unit be formed to undertake high-risk arrests, raids, and rescues, etc on the federal level if the JTF2 is not to be untilized?  Perhaps some type of high-readiness, mobile response team?  Having the JTF2 under the CF for foreign operations and this new unit under CSIS or the RCMP for domestic operations?  Am I out to lunch, or is it reasonable, or am I jusy ignorant that a unit exists.....

[Teddy Ruxpin]

JTF-2 does both foreign and domestic operations, much like its British equivalent, and has its own system for being requested from the CF.

We're discussing structure, etc., not counter-terrorism capabilities, which have been beaten to death elsewhere on this site.

Cheers,

TR

[Infanteer]

The JTF2 rightfully has no place in this discussion.   It is an element of the CF and should remain as such.

Exactly - the JTF2 is a military unit and, according to the law, it can only be ordered by the CDS.  No civilian "uber-security" department could lawfully take "command" of the JTF2.  Any discussion of its place in a National Security Strategy falls under general military strategy within the realm of the DND.

[Manimal]

You did indeed admit your lack of knowledge, then proceeded to comment on (and compare) the training of various special forces units.   There are very few people in Canada who (IMHO) are qualified to do that - even serving CF members.

I'm no old hand on this site, but even I have seen threads rapidly degenerate into nonsense as soon as special forces are mentioned.

Enough from me - back to your discussion at hand.

i have NO idea what the JTF 2 is really about. and there is nothing more then wanting to have great pride in our special forces. and my question was...(i hope) are they trained to that level. i wish we had the years of experience the SAS have, and in reading about the SAS, many many times, they point out the eliteness of other forces, mainly the USMC. i think IMHO they are the best common mil body in the world...they boardline elite. i know Canada has different values and standards the the US, not to put either country down, but we are different cultures, and the time has come to take example from our brothers from the US, and england. we haven't needed special forces for a long time..... and i think maybe that was a mistake, although we haven't needed them. and to be honest, i know nothing about CSIS, or CES, or any of those other bbody'smentioned here. NO idea we had those, i thought the RCMP were the top, with a few SS around the PM. LOL, my ignorance is great. i did not mean to sound like i was putting Canada down, or any units. the gov't, i'll openly bash, but not here lol.

[Infanteer]

 

Move along now, nothing to see here - back to the discussion at hand....

[Teddy Ruxpin]

In that vein...   

All of those orgs, including DND, have representation on the Privy Council Office intelligence section. The PCO is the "clearing house," and while it isn't the same as the Brit JIC, it performs a similar function.

But have there not been complaints in the media lately that the PCO isn't represented in the new PSEPC "command centre"?   On the int side the PCO system might function well (I don't know) but perhaps, given the carping, it doesn't on the operational side...   I've only ever see "them" in action at the provincial level, where the system worked relatively well.

I agree, though, that a "super Ministry" likely isn't the way to go.   However, we're rapidly becoming like the Americans, where there are all sorts of policing agencies that need better coordination.   PSEPC was (AFAIK) designed to do this - and I am not in a position to say whether it's been effective or not.

I also agree that a "super" civilian domestic and foreign intelligence agency wouldn't be all that productive.   Accurate or not, CSIS' public record isn't all that good and they have their hands full dealing with domestic threats.

My 2 cents...

TR

[Kal]

I am aware that the JTF2 does foreign and domestic ops, but I was replying to McG's comment and was wondering if another unit could be stood up?   The both of you Teddy and Infanteer have answered my question, that there are avenues that are used for when the abilities of this unit are needed.   Thank you.

[MCG]

I am aware that the JTF2 does foreign and domestic ops, but I was replying to McG's comment and was wondering if another unit could be stood up?

There is no need for another unit.  If the JTF2 is needed for a domestic op, the CF can provide it.  This is why JTF2 need not be discussed here.  Instead, the coordination and communication between DND & a DNS to ensure the seamless support of DND assets to security/emergency ops when required.

As Teddy Ruxpin, many of these mechanisms are already in place.