Topic: The Global Warming Super Thread

[wotan]

Hey, leave poor Al Gore alone!  After all, he invented the Internet!  And that definitely beats spelling potatoe with an "e", like I was taught in school.

[acclenticularis]

Regardless of what seems economical and regardless of the relative resources needed for extraction in the oil sands, there is far more at play here than arithmetic.  I don't see the relevance of comparing how much natural gas costs in the extraction process.  What seems relevant to me is the fact that natural gas is another non-renewable resource that we do not have ample supply of that must be used in the oil sands project.  There are many more consequences of the oil sands production than this.  It is really quite sad that people will jump on trivial details for the sake of ignoring the whole picture when issues such as environmental change is concerned.  Get acquainted with the whole issue.  There is plenty of information out there to form objective opinions re. what we are doing to the environment and will continue to do. 

[paracowboy]

and why should the inane ramblings of a liar and a loser bother me? I had a brilliant and in-depth retort to the erstwhile former Vice-President, but in the interests of saving time I have boiled it down to the following pithy remark:

Hey Al! Bite me.

[Thucydides]

Get acquainted with the whole issue.  There is plenty of information out there to form objective opinions re. what we are doing to the environment and will continue to do. 

For example, the average global temperature on Mars is increasing:
http://www.mos.org/cst-archive/article/80/9.html
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_ice-age_031208.html

Vikings farmed in Greenland during the dark ages. How many farmers are working in Greenland today? http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?id=776
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greenland

Dastardly Conservatives, Republicans and Neo-Cons are obviously going through space AND time to manipulate the climate.

And of course there is other historical data that can be accessed and understood if you know how to read and use critical though process to interpret the data. Al Gore and his friend's one sided climate change screeds will join the Ozone hole of the 1980's or the "Impending Ice Age" of the 1970's on the trash heap of history.

[Aden_Gatling]

Dastardly Conservatives, Republicans and Neo-Cons are obviously going through space AND time to manipulate the climate.

The notion that climate has varied in the past is obviously a lie perpetuated by the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy.

[GAP]

The notion that climate has varied in the past is obviously a lie perpetuated by the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy.

Well, if that's the case, we should invite them to the water thread, they'd fit right in. Might even be able to contribute !! 

[Sheerin]

Vikings farmed in Greenland during the dark ages. How many farmers are working in Greenland today?

Farming of today is VERY different from farming during the times of the vikings.  In fact farming back then is more akin to people putting vegetable gardens in their back yard, rather than the large scale farming you see in across the world.  So, I don't think that helps your argument at all.

As for the coming ice age, well, there is one coming, no one doubts that.  We're currently in an interglacial period and given enough time another ice age will start.  How and when will it start?  I have no idea.  I just know its going to happen at some point. 
 
As for global warming, yes we are altering he enivornment around us, and yes the temperature is rising, but is it permanent or directly the result of our activity?  I don't know.   What is knowning is that human activity has been linked to past increases in the global temperature, so it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that our increasing output of greenhouse gases is affecting the climate.  There was an interesting article published about a year or so ago (can't remember which journal) which suggested that the mephane released by upper paleolithic/mesolithic rice farmers in asia helped increase the global temperature, which in turn allowed for agriculture to be developed in Europe (leading to the neolithic revolution).   

And if global warming isn't a good enough reason to look into alternative fuel sources, then I suggest that smog and air quality is a damned good one.

The evidence is clear, we really need to change our ways. 

[paracowboy]

Farming of today is VERY different from farming during the times of the vikings.  In fact farming back then is more akin to people putting vegetable gardens in their back yard, rather than the large scale farming you see in across the world.  So, I don't think that helps your argument at all.

the salient point is that 1,000 years ago, vegetation grew in Iceland and Greenland. They don't now (that's first-hand experience. By the way, Iceland? No freakin' ICE! Greenland? NOT green. And no big-breasted Xena-like valkyries either. DOn't bother going.)

[Michael Dorosh]

The simple fact that these resources are non-renewable should be enough reason to change our ways, really. Klein wants to use oil and gas revenue for prosperity cheques again; I think the time is long past to start looking at effective battery powered cars, etc. The billion dollars he wants to blow on prosperity would be better spent on something like that. The bust may not come in my lifetime, but it will happen at some point.

[Kirkhill]

Sheerin - if you want to argue that we should keep the neighbourhood clean and tidy, that it looks good, that it might even be good for our health and emotional well being - feel free, fill your boots. 

My issue with Al Gore, Michal Moore, Green Peace and the IPCC is that they are parroting the line of Malthus and the Club of Rome and millenias worth of other psychotics - "The end of the world is nigh."

It ain't.

Stop panicing and deal with problems as they come.

[Kat Stevens]

My money is on a giant space rocks spinning us off into the sun long before I have to worry about coconuts falling off the palm trees in my yard hitting me on the head.

[Sheerin]

I don't think anyone, aside the use of rhetoric, actually believes that the world is coming to an end.  They just realise that if we don't change our ways some bad stuff will probably happen at some point in the future. 

As for vegetation, I can't say I have personal knowledge as i've enver been there, but from a quick google search I've found many sites that claim that there is in fact some vegetation there, generlly in the south around the fjords.  Apparently mushrooms grow there, according to another.
Along those lines, Greenland also supports various fauna such as caribou, so I really have to ask, if there is no vegetation then how do these animals survive?

[Kirkhill]

Sheerin - cows and goats don't survive on mushrooms and lichen.

[paracowboy]

if there is no vegetation then how do these animals survive?

McDonalds.

[Sheerin]

Who said anything about cows?  You said that vegetation does not grow on the island, that's why I brought up the fauna, which would question the veracity of you claiming that no vegetation grows on the island. 
But really this whole "conversation" on the vegetation of greenland is meaningless.  Stuff grows there, thats all thats required. 

[paracowboy]

Who said anything about cows? 

Kirkhill did. Weren't you paying attention?

You said that vegetation does not grow on the island, that's why I brought up the fauna, which would question the veracity of you claiming that no vegetation grows on the island.

  No, I said it. Not Kirkhill. You weren't paying attention, after all.

But really this whole "conversation" on the vegetation of greenland is meaningless.

  actually, it's quite meaningful, which is why it was raised in the first place.

Stuff grows there, thats all thats required.

I see. Only part of it matters, as long as that part supports your arguement. Got it!

[Sheerin]

I asked about cows becuase no one else had mentioned it.  I was wondering if that had something to do with the farming  activities that took place during the time of the vikings.  If not, I was wondering how cows specifically factored into this conversation as no one else had brought them up, or even implied that there was a sizable bovine population on the island.

No, I said it. Not Kirkhill. You weren't paying attention, after all.

And exactly what does it matter who said what?  Someone claimed that nothing grows there, so I pointed out there were many animals that in fact habitated the island.  The presence of terrestrial animals, especially large game species would indiciate that there is some sort of vegetation growing on the island... therefore that totally disproves your contention that no vegetation is on the island. 

the salient point is that 1,000 years ago, vegetation grew in Iceland and Greenland. They don't now (that's first-hand experience. By the way, Iceland? No freakin' ICE! Greenland? NOT green. And no big-breasted Xena-like valkyries either. DOn't bother going.)

  You did say that, right?
Whats your definition of vegetation anyway?

[paracowboy]

I asked about cows becuase no one else had mentioned it.  I was wondering if that had something to do with the farming  activities that took place during the time of the vikings.  If not, I was wondering how cows specifically factored into this conversation as no one else had brought them up, or even implied that there was a sizable bovine population on the island.

and I answered the question you asked.

Who said anything about cows?

you asked, I answered. I'm good that way.

And exactly what does it matter who said what? 

.  I dunno. It was your question. If you didn't want the answer, why did you ask? Next time you ask a question you don't want answered let us know.

Someone claimed that nothing grows there,

yeah, me remember? I reminded you of that a couple posts ago.

so I pointed out there were many animals that in fact habitated the island.

  so you did.

The presence of terrestrial animals, especially large game species would indiciate that there is some sort of vegetation growing on the island...

so it would.

therefore that totally disproves your contention that no vegetation is on the island

so it would seem.

  You did say that, right?

sure did. There it is, in green and black. Plain as day!

Whats your definition of vegetation anyway?

Plants, Flora, Liberals. Non-sentient life, essentially.

[Sheerin]

Out of curosity whcih part of Greenland did you visit?

[Kirkhill]

Vikings raised cattle, goats and horses (ponies) as well as pigs and sheep.  None of them are native to Greenland.  None of them survive on mushrooms.

Try Jared Diamond's "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed".  

The worst thing that is likely to happen is we do what the Nomads did - move to where the rain falls,  or what the Romans did - pipe water from where the rain falls to the cities - or some combination.  It depends how much you really like that Multi-Billion Dollar investment you made in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, New York....

[acclenticularis]

The worst thing that is likely to happen is we do what the Nomads did - move to where the rain falls,  or what the Romans did - pipe water from where the rain falls to the cities - or some combination.  It depends how much you really like that Multi-Billion Dollar investment you made in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, New York....

So we just go with it and react as consequences unfold?  What about a responsibility to future generations?  What about a responsibility to other nations?  Climate change knows no borders.  The remark about the ice age mania of the 70's and the ozone hole mania of the 80's is interesting.  It is also interesting to note that ozone depletion continues unabated and that, sure, the world is not coming to an end, however, people are and will continue to experience increased risk of skin cancer etc.  My question to nay-sayers is have you ever looked into the affiliations of the scientists that tend to minimize climate change and possible consequences?  Have you also investigated those that do not appear to minimize climate change studies' prognostications?  I am not a research scientist, I only have an undergrad. in meteorology to complement my degrees in business.  However, if there is something that I have learned in academia and from reading scientific journals, and that is that some scientists will mould interpretations of data for whomever they are on the payroll for.  Whenever I look at a new study or journal article, I check out who the author is and who they work for.  We know what is in it for the Bush administration, but what would the agenda of scientists who do not minimize the possible effects of climate change be?  I have seen friends go on to do research in oceanography/climatology and get hired by the Alberta provincial government.  Once on the payroll, they switch to the other end of the climate change spectrum. 

[GAP]

The worst thing that is likely to happen is we do what the Nomads did - move to where the rain falls,  or what the Romans did - pipe water from where the rain falls to the cities - or some combination.  It depends how much you really like that Multi-Billion Dollar investment you made in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, New York....

So we just go with it and react as consequences unfold?  What about a responsibility to future generations?  What about a responsibility to other nations?  Climate change knows no borders.  The remark about the ice age mania of the 70's and the ozone hole mania of the 80's is interesting.  It is also interesting to note that ozone depletion continues unabated and that, sure, the world is not coming to an end, however, people are and will continue to experience increased risk of skin cancer etc.  My question to nay-sayers is have you ever looked into the affiliations of the scientists that tend to minimize climate change and possible consequences?  Have you also investigated those that do not appear to minimize climate change studies' prognostications?  I am not a research scientist, I only have an undergrad. in meteorology to complement my degrees in business.  However, if there is something that I have learned in academia and from reading scientific journals, and that is that some scientists will mould interpretations of data for whomever they are on the payroll for.  Whenever I look at a new study or journal article, I check out who the author is and who they work for.  We know what is in it for the Bush administration, but what would the agenda of scientists who do not minimize the possible effects of climate change be?  I have seen friends go on to do research in oceanography/climatology and get hired by the Alberta provincial government.  Once on the payroll, they switch to the other end of the climate change spectrum. 

Nothing like an adgenda to keep your spirits up !!!   

[Kirkhill]

Do something or do nothing - the earth will getter warmer or colder.  Whatever the cause there will be changes - you are better off protecting the future generations by adapting to the changes.  

One of MY ancestors, from South Africa, about 1,500,000 years ago figured out how to use fire.  As a result my relatives have managed to muddle through a number of ice-ages. Including the one that just peeled back from Toronto 12,000 years ago.  Others built boats to get away from floods.  Dams to recover land and contain water.  Canals and Aqueducts and Pipelines to move water.  Cisterns to store water.

And occasionally they picked up and moved when visited by the local Volcano god or itinerant asteroid.

How did you get here?

Edited to adapt to criticism.

[HDE]

There appears to be a considerable move toward alternative sources of energy already on the go.  I'm not sure that Al Gore isn't simply running to get in front of a process already underway.  I'd say one large problem is that it'll take an enormous number of wind turbines, solar panels, etc. to make much of an impact. 

[GAP]

There appears to be a considerable move toward alternative sources of energy already on the go.  I'm not sure that Al Gore isn't simply running to get in front of a process already underway.  I'd say one large problem is that it'll take an enormous number of wind turbines, solar panels, etc. to make much of an impact. 

You are forgetting Hydro Power. It's huge, getting larger, environmentally friendly, renewable, etc. etc.

For heating, Geothermal is growing by leaps and bounds. People have finally twigged onto the fact the world does NOT become a ball of ice, just because you have.