Author Topic: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks  (Read 11792 times)

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Offline GNR

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2005, 22:36:12 »
I'm good to go Slim, thanks for the patience.

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2005, 22:57:26 »
I trained with the TO EMS CBRN response team a few years ago, when they were trying to figure their role and what was required. They've made massive strides since. They are capable and competent. Short of a massive breakdown in the social order, they can take care of the situation, without us.

We have military pers, in the guise of CIMIC and LOs that are available and in contact with their civil counterparts. The give the heads up to the Commander that the civies MAY need our help and what kind, so we can be ready SHOULD they ask.

If your house catches fire, the municipality takes care of it, if you can't. If it spreads to the block and surrounding area, it may take nearby municipalities and counties to help. If it spreads to the point the above can't handle it, it becomes the province's responsibility. When half the province is on fire, the feds will step in with all the resources available, lastly, and to include the military. That's the C of C, and we can't break it without the say so of the fed gov't.

Most times, unless it's catastrophic and beyond the logistics of the civies, we just get in the way.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2005, 23:02:49 by recceguy »
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2005, 00:15:36 »
1st, they are not MY reservists.  Although I would LOVE to have my own personal Army.  ;D

2ndly, I know it is currently not the Reserves 'Raison d'etre' to be Emergency Responders, thus my saying "SHOULD be trained as first responders".

3rdly, just where would they be getting "Recalled" from?  It was an exercise, reservists do exercises all the time.  And if it came down to the real thing the reserves seemed to respond fairly quickly to disastors in the last few years.  (For example: Operation Ice Storm and the Manitoba Floods)

I think my Regiment is a little too busy training to close with and destroy the enemy to learn how to shovel sidewalks, pile corpses, or hand out blankets in Toronto...
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2005, 00:27:19 »
I think my Regiment is a little too busy training to close with and destroy the enemy to learn how to shovel sidewalks, pile corpses, or hand out blankets in Toronto...

Substitute, or paraphrase:

I think my Regiment is a little too busy training to close with and destroy the enemy to learn how to shovel sidewalks (of snow, crap, mud, body parts) pile corpses, or hand out blankets in Toronto(Kabul, Khandahar, Bosnia, Haiti, Seirra Leone.....)

A pretty pompous, and out of touch statement, if you ask me.


So your Regiment is to busy to learn to do what the rest of the Forces does when overseas?
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Offline Britney Spears

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2005, 00:39:47 »
Well, one would suppose that shovelling sidewalks is not as chalenging a task as closing with and destroying and whatnot, and so would require less training.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2005, 00:47:21 »
Without stateting the obvious, I was trying to explain that "the forte of the infantry" is not the sole task of the military while on deployment, and to train strictly to that end is a fool's game, but possibly worthwhile for those that will never deploy.
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Offline CTD

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2005, 14:12:10 »
If the civie agency has the abilities to work with in a mass NBC, explosion or other disaster threat then my hat is off to them, the reality is they are not fully prepared to. One thing i find with most of these exercises in disaster response is that they are staged, almost to an exact script. Every one knows what is going to happen, how it is going to happen and what the end result will be. Almost as if on que things happen. We all know that when a big situation comes up, it is not always on que or follow any of our previous planning.

One thing i hate the most is the false sense of security that we have and we portray to our people in how great our preparedness is or was. Our local authorities and the CF have done very little to foster the team work and the realities of a joint preparedness group. Yes the higher ups in the organizations have the best laid plans that all work when they do a script. Almost like acting. Yet we know that if you put troops on the ground to do more then just shovel side walks and cut trees and distribute food. (meaning securing sites with weapons and Armoured vehicles) their will be much more of a planning stage needed. (protesters, some of whom may be your friends and such)

This stage starts with an overall concept of operations, then moves onto a a more detailed concept for individual situations, (IE nuclear, chem, ice storms, earth quakes, fires, floods etc). The fact that a foot on the ground is always refereed to as the best method to train and prepare for a situation. (The saying TRAIN FOR WAR IN PEACE TIME is most befitting, even for these lesser of disasters).

Some will disagree, and say that we do not have to put feet on the ground as soldiers to be able to respond to a disaster. I can tell you it sure helps out though, things such as familiarity with the area, the people and the obstacles that are their helps. These skills go on a larger  scale then just that single area or training aspect. The skills learnt and developed can be used any where else you want, and or may deploy in the future.

The aspect of a small attack in the sub way of TO, and then a bomb attack just mere blocks away is great to get feet wet and people to flush out skills. How many people were involved, what level were they notified prior to that this was an exercises, many more questions.

We need to look beyond our old relic days of one thought training and look into the larger scale of things and be prepared for them. Things such as being able to transport food, water and emergency personal to all points in Canada in time of need, with out the use of air ports, road ways or mountain passes. Have a stock pile of usable food and fuel.

I have to get going back to work.   



Offline Slim

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2005, 16:58:27 »
Allott of people ( I find anyway) seem to think that these excesizes, which are scripted, are a bad thing!

Ever do martial arts? What do we do in martial arts...we do drills so that we know the proper steps and how things are supposed to work out, even if its only to know when something is going wrong.

Having a free-for-all with our emergency services does not accomplish anythng!

Having a drill tha teaches people how a specific event should play out is far more beneficial.
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Offline Old Ranger

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2005, 18:23:57 »
One thing i find with most of these exercises in disaster response is that they are staged, almost to an exact script. Every one knows what is going to happen, how it is going to happen and what the end result will be. Almost as if on que things happen. We all know that when a big situation comes up, it is not always on que or follow any of our previous planning.


Lost my original reply,

2nd attempt.

The Exercises are for all the Allied Agencies to learn to work together in a safe environment and to find out what capabilities each have to offer.

During Basic, How much "pepper potting" do you do?
Do you use blanks, t-flashes and arty sims?...safe learning environment.

At least there is an effort to improve.

I like the rest of your post but I cannot answer your specific questions about that scenario.
I'll try to get a copy of the after action reports and let you know.
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Offline CTD

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2005, 19:00:56 »
How many times have you been on an exercises to do the same (almost) exact training. It gets boring, people get complacent and things get missed. The troops get bored as do the officers.   

Think of this. You are on your typical ex, where the Guns are firing, tanks are crashing around, Infantry every where, fuel trucks are resupplying, Fast air is moving in dropping bombs, the Helo's are in bound to pick you up, a mere few hours earlier you did a beach assault from landing craft that left the destroyer group pacific.

You are now at the peak of the battle, all of a sudden your main comms shuts down, you no longer have comms with any one out side of Platoon let alone Company. Running low on ammo and water.   Now fast track a few hours ahead. You finally find out what happened, turns out the HQ element has been captured and or incapacitated, your Regimental comms has been devastated, your codes no longer work the enemy has jammed all out going and in comming radio messages. Your forces have now become less effective as a force.

Sound like a far fetched scenario, well yes it is. Do we ever try to work at that level. No. We train at the lower levels for reasons, Money being the biggest factor. Our actual perceived competence level. Their is nothing wrong with doing the basics of training and reinforcing them time and time again. But at some point we must move onto a level of training where we can branch out and work at things we normally do not practice.

Other Military's train like this. They put together a general concept of Operations for a given scenario, (usually a realistic one they have encountered with in the last few years) they practice this till they have the basics down. They also throw wrenches into the system so that they can properly evaluate the team. Ie take out the C&C, or down A/C, maybe even deny resupply of fuel so vehicles are not available. To know ahead of schedule what where, when and how you are training is good to a very rudimentary point. I mean such things as your drills for actions on and your RV's, how to re suppply, mines encounters etc are all very important to a soldier for basic skills.

The need to improve onto those skills at a higher level be it Military or civie is just as important. At a higher level i mean for the individual them selves to attain that higher level. It just isn't good enough for us to practice a basic drill   time and time again, we must progress beyond that basic ability and strive for a much higher one. Especially if lives of Canadians is at risk.

Why did TO conduct this subway/building training ex. Due to the public wanting to see some action taken by the government to prove they were prepared after the Bombings in London and the confirmation that Canada was also on the HIT list for the terrorist's.   Typical of a group under pressure they put together an exercises that I have no doubt went off with out any major hitches.( i in no way mean to insult the responders on the ground or question their abilities). That is because they wanted it to.   

Your analogy of martial arts is a good one. But if you only ever train at the lower level of martial arts then you will never attain a higher level of ability and you will always be at the lower level of the spectrum.    I agree though that you need the basics and should always have time set aside to practice the basics. But your plan should never be the basics. That gives false sense of a persons ability to not only them but to others that may rely on them.   

I am not sure if you interpreted what i originally said as being a Free for all,   I in no way meant to convey that. The bottom line is you must always have a mission with a goal (the goal should not be so easy as to relay a false sense of security for those around). I do think that the government under pressure from the public and also other groups with in The Department Of Defense (not only the CF)and possibly other out side agencies put together a plan and did a show of comfort more so then an actual show of ability.   I guess only time will tell if they carry out more of these exercises and at a larger scale and intensity with all of the special operations groups that may be involved.   

I hope that i didn't step on any ones toes, or get any one to riled up. Also hope that i haven't said anything that may get me in trouble at work.

Cheers guys and girls

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2005, 19:18:24 »
How high did you just blow your hat?     A full page of hot air pontificating in circles and coming to no logical conclusion.   It has been pointed out to you that Drills are done in Training to get personnel to work as a team and efficiently.   Your ramblings about training for higher causes are crap.   We train for every likely scenario we can imagine.   The Public doesn't dictate what we do in our training, we do.   Just because you have some other wild idea of what we should train for, doesn't mean that the training we are doing is meaningless.   You are not the CDS.   You have no idea of what your immediate Commander has in his Training Plan.   Obviously you have no clue of what we train for, how we train for it, and why we train that way.   Can you honestly tell us that you are a member of an elite team, whose members have remained the same since you all joined, with no changes, and that you can retain everything you have been taught in the past?   I doubt it.   That is why we have "Drills" and why we must continually start at "Square One" over and over again (Especially in the Reserves or with Non Combat Arms).   Oh Well!   The main questions of this Thread were answered on the first page.  On that note:  http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html
« Last Edit: September 20, 2005, 19:37:00 by George Wallace »
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Offline paracowboy

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2005, 20:11:29 »
How many times have you been ...a plan and did a show of comfort more so then an actual show of ability.   I guess only time will tell if they carry out more of these exercises and at a larger scale and intensity with all of the special operations groups that may be involved.
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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2005, 20:17:14 »
Without stateting the obvious, I was trying to explain that "the forte of the infantry" is not the sole task of the military while on deployment, and to train strictly to that end is a fool's game, but possibly worthwhile for those that will never deploy.

Wow.  If you really need training in shovelling snow, I'd recommend not transferring out our way anytime soon, you're bound to be disappointed.  ;) 
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2005, 21:26:29 »
Quote from CTD,
You are now at the peak of the battle, all of a sudden your main comms shuts down, you no longer have comms with any one out side of Platoon let alone Company. Running low on ammo and water.  Now fast track a few hours ahead. You finally find out what happened, turns out the HQ element has been captured and or incapacitated, your Regimental comms has been devastated, your codes no longer work the enemy has jammed all out going and in comming radio messages. Your forces have now become less effective as a force.

Sound like a far fetched scenario, well yes it is. Do we ever try to work at that level. No. We train at the lower levels for reasons, Money being the biggest factor. Our actual perceived competence level. Their is nothing wrong with doing the basics of training and reinforcing them time and time again. But at some point we must move onto a level of training where we can branch out and work at things we normally do not practice
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Offline CTD

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2005, 23:56:30 »
Intersting point about not knowing what is at the commanders intent. Usually at the beginning of the fiscal year units carry out a brief as to the new year of training, this will include what the Commanders intent for the next 12 or so months is. This usually encompasses BTS,  for some Units and Brigades Work up training for a Roto over seas even takings for training for the summer and Regimental schools. Maybe for duty with the IRF,(what ever they call it now)

I never once said that I was a member of an elite team (special operations group) meaning all the agency's with in the disaster response team. Be it Civie or Military. They may include special dogs sniffing teams, chemical defense teams, special divers, recovery crews trained in urban search and rescue, heavy search and rescue, Special fire fighting, the list goes on and they are all special operations with in their own agency's. I am not how ever a special operations person my self.  Nor have i ever claimed to be. If i gave that impression then i am sorry for that

I can see though that we are not trained to respond to these situations. The response to BC for preparedness in case of an earth quake? the forest fire response how ever over whelming it was, it showed a lack of efficiency with in our level of preparedness to respond to a disaster with in our own borders. We can not respond to a disaster the same as we do a war. We need to stream line and be able to work with in the local authorities their expectations. This includes knowing what capabilities they have and how we can work with them to enhance them and ours. They also need to know what we can actually bring to the table not and our capabilities.  If you cant see that then maybe you should only train to kill people.

It is funny and also discouraging to hear such comments,  "training for higher causes are crap" made by a member. If we only ever trained in the basic drills then how do we ever prepare for other such emergencies or situations that may arise? Seems very few units use to train for land mines and convoy duties. I think they spend some more time doing that now. How about ROE training. That is all higher training I think.

I am not disputing the need for training at the basic level, but we also need training at the higher level for the troops. They are the ones whom are going to have to crawl under buildings in bulky gear to help people, they are the ones to do mass decontamination of persons, they are the ones whom shall be patrolling the streets of their towns and city's,  Better to train together with these agency's before it happens then wait for it to happen and just go with the flow and make it work.

The response to the subway exercises by the Government is the same as the one done in BC for an earth quake, only done to appease the public. This after threats, and disaster else where happened. It only lasts for a short time and then the Government wipes it brow and carry on to more intresting things. 

You say the public has not dictated how we train, Well tell that to the people through out the past few years in the training system whom have seen a decline in training due to publics reluctance to spend more money on the CF, To buy new helos until it was in the public intrest (ie voting power) to get them. How about the levels of training with in the schools where they have cut out portions such as live fires and that. All to save money so we can appease the public and say that we have tightend our budget. That is how the public controls our level of training. It has suffered and the Chain of Command has stated that for the past few years, they are now trying to get the money and resources in place to get back up to where we should be.

My point for all this is that the civil agency's and the Department of Defense should all work together at the lowest level of planning and work their way up. That way if they ever have to respond to any type of attack or large disaster they have the basic skills of each other to work with.  We need to practice the basics, this includes all agency's involve regardless...

You know what Bruce I was waiting for some one to mention a hint to the past where i have no doubt you and others had the experience to go through some very good training. But not many of the older crowd around. I chuckle over your comment.     


Offline recceguy

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2005, 00:22:39 »
How many times have you been on an exercises to do the same (almost) exact training. It gets boring, people get complacent and things get missed. The troops get bored as do the officers.   

I'll let you answer the bold part of your above question first.

Think of this. You are on your typical ex, where the Guns are firing, tanks are crashing around, Infantry every where, fuel trucks are resupplying, Fast air is moving in dropping bombs, the Helo's are in bound to pick you up, a mere few hours earlier you did a beach assault from landing craft that left the destroyer group pacific.

I can only suppose your not talking about the Canadian Forces here. If you are, the answer to your first question should be zero. We haven't had an ex like that since before you were in diapers.

You are now at the peak of the battle, all of a sudden your main comms shuts down, you no longer have comms with any one out side of Platoon let alone Company. Running low on ammo and water.
Now fast track a few hours ahead. You finally find out what happened, turns out the HQ element has been captured and or incapacitated, your Regimental comms has been devastated, your codes no longer work the enemy has jammed all out going and in comming radio messages. Your forces have now become less effective as a force.

The bolded portion describes most Canadian exercises anyway.

Sound like a far fetched scenario, well yes it is. Do we ever try to work at that level. No. We train at the lower levels for reasons, Money being the biggest factor. Our actual perceived competence level. Their is nothing wrong with doing the basics of training and reinforcing them time and time again. But at some point we must move onto a level of training where we can branch out and work at things we normally do not practice.

Total chaos? All the time.

Other Military's train like this. They put together a general concept of Operations for a given scenario, (usually a realistic one they have encountered with in the last few years) they practice this till they have the basics down. They also throw wrenches into the system so that they can properly evaluate the team. Ie take out the C&C, or down A/C, maybe even deny resupply of fuel so vehicles are not available. To know ahead of schedule what where, when and how you are training is good to a very rudimentary point. I mean such things as your drills for actions on and your RV's, how to re suppply, mines encounters etc are all very important to a soldier for basic skills.

I don't think you really have a good grasp of what it takes, co-ord and logistic wise, to put on a good ex, like you speak of. We have neither the time, or money to do it. Not an excuse, just the way it is.

The need to improve onto those skills at a higher level be it Military or civie is just as important. At a higher level i mean for the individual them selves to attain that higher level. It just isn't good enough for us to practice a basic drill   time and time again, we must progress beyond that basic ability and strive for a much higher one. Especially if lives of Canadians is at risk.

Basic drills practiced time and again are what teach a soldier to act instincivley in a given situation. If you master the basics, permutations and adaptations are much easier to impliment when needed on the two way range.

Why did TO conduct this subway/building training ex. Due to the public wanting to see some action taken by the government to prove they were prepared after the Bombings in London and the confirmation that Canada was also on the HIT list for the terrorist's.   Typical of a group under pressure they put together an exercises that I have no doubt went off with out any major hitches.( i in no way mean to insult the responders on the ground or question their abilities). That is because they wanted it to.   

TO conducted the practice because the subway is a likely and logical target. I'd rather them practice and make their mistakes now, than later, when they can't afford to.

Your analogy of martial arts is a good one. But if you only ever train at the lower level of martial arts then you will never attain a higher level of ability and you will always be at the lower level of the spectrum.    I agree though that you need the basics and should always have time set aside to practice the basics. But your plan should never be the basics. That gives false sense of a persons ability to not only them but to others that may rely on them.   

I am not sure if you interpreted what i originally said as being a Free for all,   I in no way meant to convey that. The bottom line is you must always have a mission with a goal (the goal should not be so easy as to relay a false sense of security for those around). I do think that the government under pressure from the public and also other groups with in The Department Of Defense (not only the CF)and possibly other out side agencies put together a plan and did a show of comfort more so then an actual show of ability.   I guess only time will tell if they carry out more of these exercises and at a larger scale and intensity with all of the special operations groups that may be involved.   

I hope that i didn't step on any ones toes, or get any one to riled up. Also hope that i haven't said anything that may get me in trouble at work.

Cheers guys and girls

Trust me. The CF is no more prepared to handle a bomb in the subway than the civies are, probably less so. There are protocols for the CF to follow when it comes to Aid of the Civil Power. It's been updated constantly and revamped regularly, with consultation by experts on both sides. I'm sure they appreciate your input
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2005, 00:29:28 »
So CTD, you want us to be all seeing, all dancing Bears?  You want all the members of the CF to be fully trained as Fire Fighters, Paramedics, Police, SAR Techs; not as soldiers, sailors or airmen, so that they can react to any emergency that may befall Canada.  A Forest Fire in BC or Quebec, an earthquake, or a flood.  What if these things never happen within your life-time?  What if we should instead go to War?

We have Police, Fire, Ambulance and Rescue Services in the Civilian world for those things.  We, as Gen Hillier said, are not the Public Civil Service; we are the Canadian Forces.....We train to kill.  Handing out Teddy Bears and filling sandbags during a flood are tasks we can fill on the side, but our primary job is to kill when called upon.

I can see though that we are not trained to respond to these situations. The response to BC for preparedness in case of an earth quake? the forest fire response how ever over whelming it was, it showed a lack of efficiency with in our level of preparedness to respond to a disaster with in our own borders. We can not respond to a disaster the same as we do a war. We need to stream line and be able to work with in the local authorities their expectations. This includes knowing what capabilities they have and how we can work with them to enhance them and ours. They also need to know what we can actually bring to the table not and our capabilities.  If you cant see that then maybe you should only train to kill people.
You are really out of touch with:
It is funny and also discouraging to hear such comments,  "training for higher causes are crap" made by a member. If we only ever trained in the basic drills then how do we ever prepare for other such emergencies or situations that may arise? Seems very few units use to train for land mines and convoy duties. I think they spend some more time doing that now. How about ROE training. That is all higher training I think.
I can asure you that most units do Mine Awarness training.  They do cover the ROEs for their taskings.

 
I am not disputing the need for training at the basic level, but we also need training at the higher level for the troops. They are the ones whom are going to have to crawl under buildings in bulky gear to help people, they are the ones to do mass decontamination of persons, they are the ones whom shall be patrolling the streets of their towns and city's,  Better to train together with these agency's before it happens then wait for it to happen and just go with the flow and make it work.

The response to the subway exercises by the Government is the same as the one done in BC for an earth quake, only done to appease the public. This after threats, and disaster else where happened. It only lasts for a short time and then the Government wipes it brow and carry on to more intresting things.
Again, that is the job of the Civilian 'Specialists', not the military.  Only after the Civilian authorities have run out of resourses will the military come in, but remember the military is equiped for War. 

I find you are using faulty logic with these statements: 

You say the public has not dictated how we train, Well tell that to the people through out the past few years in the training system whom have seen a decline in training due to publics reluctance to spend more money on the CF, To buy new helos until it was in the public intrest (ie voting power) to get them. How about the levels of training with in the schools where they have cut out portions such as live fires and that. All to save money so we can appease the public and say that we have tightend our budget. That is how the public controls our level of training. It has suffered and the Chain of Command has stated that for the past few years, they are now trying to get the money and resources in place to get back up to where we should be.
In that the Gov't has made serious cutbacks to the budget is a fact.  To say that the public dictates how we carry on our individual training is wrong.  We do the best we can with what we have.  Cutbacks to training has happened, but we still decide how we will train, not John Q. Public.
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Offline FormerHorseGuard

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2005, 00:33:51 »
i think some of the reasons the City  of Toronto , the Metro Police, Fire, Ambullance, TTC and other civilian groups put on this display  was to see if they  learned anything since becoming a one city  service and wanted to see how they  worked together.

History  lesson here.

not too long ago there was not just one city  in Metro Toronto,  there was North York, Scarborough, Ebitcoke, East York, York, Toronto and I might have left one or two out, not trying to leave anything out. Metro Toronto funded the ambulance services, the Police services,9-1-1,  and the TTC, they  were the only  city  wide services that  crossed the city  limits and could freely  roam from one city  to another.  Fire Services and  Rescue was covered by each city  on its own budget.

There was a major subway accident in the early 90's. Lessons learned there, one the police, fire, ambulance services , TTC , and other rescue services could not talk to one another as their equipment was not the same. They  found out Police, Fire and Ambulance services could not talk to one another or with the TTC under gound as the comms system did not work in the tunnels . Made rescue efforts and other tasks very  difficult and in effective in some offical minds.

Fast forward a few years and the Mega City  of Toronto came into being, creating its own problems, Police and ambulance was already  under the roof of Metro Toronto, they  were just folded into Mega Toronto , but the fire services had to be studied and they had to figure out what  comms system of all the ones already in use was to be used. they had to make it work with the rest of the city. they  corrected some major problems, then they had redisbrute equipment and man power across the city, some fire halls closed  ( in some cases there were 2 in a 8 block area , old city  lines ) unified training system had toocme into play, roles had to be filled and moved.

Fast Forward to the exercise

It was the city if Toronto who wanted to see how their services and man power would respond to a major terror attrack, if your going to train, might as train and test for the worst case possible.  Before a city  can ask for help from another level of government they have to see what  they  have  and what  they have not. cannot request help till youknow your limits.

Should the military  be involved in something like that, no , the likely hood of some military  people being involved at a distance is good.  Some where along the line I am sure they were some higher pay grade making a few calls for research to ask if this happened what  could you provide in 12 hours, 24 hours, 36 hours and 48 hours and in 72 hours. I am sure that  is covered somewhere on the training plan and in the diasater plan.  ( for instances  during the subway  crash they  borrowed field phones from some one so they  could have comms from the accident site to the ops area who lent them i do not know or really care)

It was the city  of Toronto money  being spent on that  training EX, not DND or Ottawa money  so the military  should stay  out till requested.  Before they  can request AIDE TO CIVIL POWER , they have to know the limits of their men, equipment and find out what  they can handle. Sometimes the military  is not the right group to ask for help because the special equipment and people trained to run it is not in the  military.

RES Persons from Toronto area units. Great group of soldiers i am sure, they  can do what  they are trained for.  You have to look at the area in which the units are located and where the troops live and the commute time to the unit HQ before they  could be sent out to help. Not like there is platoon or company  level unit on 24 standby at the various training sites within the city. if a major event  happened in Toronto, most of the res forces would be cut off from the downtown units because of traffic,  distance and the fact the city  might be closed down. Not much help there.

Reg Force
Time to decide what  is being sent, who is being sent, transport, or lack of transport.
Base Borden has lots of troops, lots of training vechiles,  but most of the troops are non combat arms or are troops under traiining at the QL 3 level, not great effective fighting force or aide to civil power force.  Base Trenton, aircraft and airforcetypes are there, lots of planes and stuff but no troops to airlift in.
Base Petawawa, , lots of vechiles, lots of manpower, trained man power,  problem with them is distance to move troops to Southern Ontario. a few helicopters stationed there, air lift maybe 100 troops total  with basic equipment, still 2 hours plus to the city  after lift off.

Those are just some of the basic factors that you have to think about before getting  excited that the military was left out this TRG EX.

I am sure it will be a few months before all the reports are done and edited for mass release on how the various services reactted to the training, how they  will correct the mistakes they  found, I am sure some of it will never be released. I am sure you  will see new equipment dreams from all involved. You will see new equipment purchases in future city and department budgets. Some of you might even see a another training exercise that  has some uniformed military  leaders at , seeing how the Canadian Forces can be of help, or what  the military  might learn from them.

What  I want to see the feeling there is a plan, they know what  to do and I hope never to see them have to use it in real life.

only edited for typos
« Last Edit: September 21, 2005, 00:41:45 by FormerHorseGuard »

Offline FormerHorseGuard

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2005, 00:50:31 »
I am not claiming to be the expert here on subway  trains, tunnels, and equipment.  Never in any  CF training program do they cover subway  tunnels, power supply and how the subway  works. 
no two subway  systems in Canada or the world run the same way, different voltages, power supply , means of supplying the power to the equipment.  some are 3rd rail power, some run on rubber wheels, some are mono rail, some are over head wires,different equipment is used on subways in torontot then used in montreal,  get the idea.
i am so what  edcuated in the way a subway train operates and what  safety  devices are in place but no expert.  i was a grunt in a res unit and pay clerk later on, was on BDF force for a base I was on. No one ever covered how to walk or run thru a subway  tunnel and search for bombs or rescue people. That  is some they have specially trained TTC, Fire and Ambulance people , police and securty people for. No army  people are trained for that. it would be a major waste of army  money  to train anyone to do it.
Toronto trains the people to do this and they have the means to train and the means to provide the training.

Army  guys stay  out of train tunnels because they  would get hurt big time. 660 volt 3rd rail cooks faster then you blink.

Offline GNR

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2005, 08:58:28 »
Good point FormerHorseGuard!

It certainly would make sense to start learning that stuff now, instead of having our troops just become another casualty when they are sent in as a last ditch effort.

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2005, 09:04:16 »
GNR,
You still don't get it......by the time the civil authourities called in the military there would be no power to some stupid third rail. Are you not happy just admitting that we are not a big part of the national disaster scheme?

...and to be truthful, you are not doing your troopies any favours if you think that kind of training should take anything away from the core war training they should be doing.
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Offline GNR

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2005, 09:13:56 »
Bruce, sadly I have to accept the reality that the CF is not able to respond to something like this, unless it happens on someone else's soil in which case we will team up with the local authorities (and maybe other countries) as part of a task force to help.

That doesn't change that fact that I feel we SHOULD respond.

Offline Old Ranger

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2005, 09:19:07 »
How many times have you been on an exercises to do the same (almost) exact training. It gets boring, people get complacent and things get missed. The troops get bored as do the officers.

That's what a very good Enemy Force is for.
Is there a reason you have to do the same thing.....until it is done right.

These training scenarios are not always politically motivated but need pressure on the politicians to allow the training.

Allot of the scenarios and requests for joint task force training have been submitted years ago.

As Former Horse Guard stated the ever changing/improving T.O. EMS system.   Do you think the Actual Subway accident in the 90's wasn't thought up earlier
as a scenario?
They were able to make improvements from fact and finally get a chance to practice what they plan.
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Offline GNR

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2005, 16:38:59 »
Piper, in the spirit of "playing nice", I'll elaborate a bit more, with-out playing into the smart-a$$ comments about the nice big colourful pictures..

Quote
The CF should NOT respond until we are asked to

No arguing that.  Sending troops in when they are not required would just add to the already insuing chaos.

Quote
(so when the poo really hits the fan)  because with one or two exceptions we have NO units that are trained for this type of problem

Exactly the problem that I am speaking of.  If we have no one trained to react to this type of a problem and we do receive that call we will be more of a hinderance than help.

Quote
large ammounts of manpower and/or heavy equipment (i.e. during floods) are needed when civvie resources are exhausted.

So in the case of a terrorist attack in a subway there would be extensive damage to it and the surrounding areas.  The city could probably handle it, but as was mentioned before training is typically completed in a worst case scenario so let's assume it would surpass their efforts.  Therefore it may require more trained feet on the ground either helping with the displaced and wounded OR operating heavy equipment.

Worse case, the terrorists aren't done and more damage starts occuring.

As I mentioned above, if we don't practice these skills WITH the joint forces we will be working with we will be a hinderance instead of help.

Quote
We help when civvie resources are exhausted, which will happen long after a first response scenario.

Correct, and if we do not participate in the first response exercises that practice these skills we will fail them if they call on us.  I am not suggesting that we send troops EVERYTIME there is such an exercise, but we should be part of the command element as an advisor and observer.

The command element must understand what they are sending our troops into.  By monitoring and assisting in the effort that the civy response teams are doing we will have a better idea of the civlian capabilities.  And I am SURE that we will be astounded by their capabilities, imagine what they could do if they had more trained people to do the grunt work so they could focus on the advanced skills they have aquired.

The command element must also KNOW what the civy response team is capable of so that he can determine where his troops will best fit in.

Quote
We learn that the CF should not be involved in a first response exercise (or a real scenario)

I would imagine there has been instances where we were the first response over seas to disastors both natural and man-made.

The reason the US military forces can work so well as first responders is because they work very closely with the civy services.  They know where they fit in the big puzzle.

We will be called upon, by participating in these exercises we can also answer these questions:
Will we be help or hinderance?
Do we have a grasp on the skills and equipment that are already available and in use by the rest of the response effort?
Where will our troops be of the most benefit?
What equipment do we have that is not already in abundance?

In order to succeed you must prepare, if you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail.
If all crap hits the fan we are EXPECTED to succeed, let's make sure we do.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2005, 16:49:45 »
Exactly the problem that I am speaking of.  If we have no one trained to react to this type of a problem and we do receive that call we will be more of a hinderance than help.


GNR, a significant issue would be detailing exactly what skills need to be trained, how much time and money would be expended on it, and how many different "first response" skill sets would be required by which units.

Also, any attempts to execute cooperative training with municipal or provincial (or even other federal) organizations incurs costs. You can be sure that if DND suddenly declared it an operationsal requirement for any of our units/personnel to train with these agencies, they would be standing there with their bill in hand for us to pay as well.

Could you detail exactly what you had in mind as the critical minimum training you perceive is recommended for all CF personnel, for specific personnel, or for designated units? Also, how much training time and what budgeted items would you accept being reduced to balance the time and financial costs of these new responaibilities you judge to be so critical?

Thank you.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2005, 16:53:17 by Michael O'Leary »