Topic: I GOT A CALL FOR the NOAB" Threads

[Nostix]

Anyway, it's obvious you don't have an engineering degree

Oh wow, your foot is lodged really, really far in your mouth on this one.

[Container]

I remember when I was in the reserves we had this one "engineering officer" who had an engineers degree. We couldnt figure out what to do with him because he kept failing BMQ. You'd catch him wandering around without a headress because he "failed BMQ" and wasn't allowed to have one.

Which we explained was wrong but he couldnt be made to understand. Finally, we made him wear a piece of red tape on an epaulet so that you could spot him from a distance and know not to waste your breath. I doubt he ever passed- and I doubt he is still in.

I worked with some great officers with all types of degrees eventually through the CF. And NCM's of all breeds with degrees as well. It wasnt the type of degree they had that defined the quality of officer they were.

And by your posts I get a feeling of what kind of officer you will be as well. Hopefully the CO of whatever unit you wind up in makes you wear red tape for the benefit of the rest of us.

[CDN Aviator]

Anyway, it's obvious you don't have an engineering degree

Ouch !! Thats got to hurt......

On the superiority of an engineering degree, i have this to say :

[George Wallace]

I remember when I was in the reserves we had this one "engineering officer" who had an engineers degree. We couldnt figure out what to do with him because he kept failing BMQ. You'd catch him wandering around without a headress because he "failed BMQ" and wasn't allowed to have one.

Which we explained was wrong but he couldnt be made to understand. Finally, we made him wear a piece of red tape on an epaulet so that you could spot him from a distance and know not to waste your breath. I doubt he ever passed- and I doubt he is still in.

I worked with some great officers with all types of degrees eventually through the CF. And NCM's of all breeds with degrees as well. It wasnt the type of degree they had that defined the quality of officer they were.

And by your posts I get a feeling of what kind of officer you will be as well. Hopefully the CO of whatever unit you wind up in makes you wear red tape for the benefit of the rest of us.

Why does that old comment that "the men would follow him, not for his leadership skills, but out of curiosity" come to mind.

[Globemaster]

Anyway, it's obvious you don't have an engineering degree and it's equally obvious I do, so it's not suprising you and I disagree on it being more applicable to the NCS Engineering job than a history degree.

You should check before making such a statement. If I recall, gcclarke is a naval combat systems engineering officer with an engineering degree.... he might end up as one of your instructors in the future

[guysletsdoit]

OMG!!! This post has gone way too out of the basic thought of engineers.

We cannot deny the fact that most engineers earn more in civilian society than CF. Hence my comment "CF is in love with engineers" It is obvious that many engineers would not want to apply if they are looking at money factor. The engineers who do apply look at adventure aspect first and hence we need to make sure we take right people to NOAB.

I accept your argument Matt that you eventually got what you wanted but as Seadog mentioned you missed what you can expect from Navy and what Navy can give you at the end of the day. The only way is going to NOAB. Guys, engineers after 4 years of study do loose reality touch but they still make good leaders. So lets not generalize the red tape thing to all engineers. The only thing that has to be thought about through this post is how to make the system work better. Of course not change it. Especially for NTO, NOAB should take candidates in the most likely to likely range. The reason once again is that most like candidates miss NOAB to candidates who appear likely but are not sure what they want out of CF or Navy. I understand that it is discriminatory to screen candidates out based on age but come on guys understand the fact that a younger candidate if nurtured properly is likely to survive than an older guy coz he has more number of years to put in. It is basic cost analysis. Think this from economics point. We are no more in the WWII era of patriotism etc.. For me and I am sure for many CF is another way of life and career as looked parallel to civilian and I have met manay officers who think on same lines.

- K

[George Wallace]

OMG!!! This post has gone way too out of the basic thought of engineers.

We cannot deny the fact that most engineers earn more in civilian society than CF. Hence my comment "CF is in love with engineers" It is obvious that many engineers would not want to apply if they are looking at money factor. The engineers who do apply look at adventure aspect first and hence we need to make sure we take right people to NOAB.

I accept your argument Matt that you eventually got what you wanted but as Seadog mentioned you missed what you can expect from Navy and what Navy can give you at the end of the day. The only way is going to NOAB. Guys, engineers after 4 years of study do loose reality touch but they still make good leaders. So lets not generalize the red tape thing to all engineers. The only thing that has to be thought about through this post is how to make the system work better. Of course not change it. Especially for NTO, NOAB should take candidates in the most likely to likely range. The reason once again is that most like candidates miss NOAB to candidates who appear likely but are not sure what they want out of CF or Navy. I understand that it is discriminatory to screen candidates out based on age but come on guys understand the fact that a younger candidate if nurtured properly is likely to survive than an older guy coz he has more number of years to put in. It is basic cost analysis. Think this from economics point. We are no more in the WWII era of patriotism etc.. For me and I am sure for many CF is another way of life and career as looked parallel to civilian and I have met manay officers who think on same lines.

- K

    Huh?  Is English your second language?

[guysletsdoit]

Yes I never learnt English. Still I am going to be an officer with Canadian Navy. Any problems?

[CDN Aviator]

Any problems?

Nothing major, just work on you language skills. I had to read you post a few times so that it would start making sense.

[George Wallace]

Well.  I honestly found your post incomprehensible.  It was almost gibberish.  I do find it amusing that you think an Engineering Degree makes one a good leader.  I can categorically tell you right now that a 'framed piece of paper' on the wall does not a leader make, even if it is an Engineering Degree.  It only proves that one had the tenacity to stay in college or university for a long enough period of time to get that 'piece of paper'.  Nothing more.

[guysletsdoit]

Thank you for your advice CDN Aviator, will definitely make an effort to polish language skills.

George, with due respect, I am sure that framed piece of paper earns more money that any other piece of paper. average pay in Alberta - newly graduated engineer,registered as Engineer In Training with APEGGA - around $60,000.

I am sorry if my posts are not making sense but I still stick to my view about engineers that they do make good leaders. Agreed that NTO will never be Chief of Naval Staff, still you cannot put "red tape" on all engineers.

[George Wallace]

Nothing major, just work on you language skills. I had to read you post a few times so that it would start making sense.

As CDN Aviator says, work on your language skills.  Posting here will no doubt help to further develop those skills (if we get picky with you).  One trick is to stop before you hit post and read aloud what you are going to post.  If it sounds like the way that you would talk normally in conversation, then you are ninety per cent of the way there.  Spell Check helps, but the more you write and speak the better you will get.

We all have a lot to learn, and even then we sometimes run into things that just seem odd.  The other day I wrote "behaviour" in something that I was writing and it just didn't look right.  I used a couple of different Spell Check programs and I had indeed spelled it correctly, but it still did not look quite right.  It happens to all of us.  Practice helps.

I do think that you may have an opinion of that 'piece of paper' that may be a bit flawed.  There are people with similar pieces of paper who are making a living driving cabs, and you will find that NOT all of the people who may be accepted to this program, even with all of their Degrees and 'education', are going to be successful in becoming officers. 

[guysletsdoit]

Thank you and please don't get picky on me. Just think I am writing to improve my writing skills.

Possibly yes. I have spent 4 years in University and then going through the affiliation process with APEGGA which was another 2 years. Being a foreign graduate I had to compete( I mean it "compete) to get work that will earn me a living equivalent to Canadian graduate. I feel proud of that piece of paper.

Rest assured when I graduate from BMOQ, I will make sure that CF also feels proud of my engineering skills.

[George Wallace]

..... I feel proud of that piece of paper.

Everyone who has worked towards one or more of those 'pieces of paper' is proud of it (them). 

In the CF, you will earn many more.  All well worth being proud of.












That is why many of us have "I Love Me Walls".       

[Mattl86]

You should check before making such a statement. If I recall, gcclarke is a naval combat systems engineering officer with an engineering degree.... he might end up as one of your instructors in the future

Well, that's embarrassing for me then.  I did not mean it was obvious he had a degree other than engineering because he was stupid or something, I just assumed that by the way he was speaking of an engineering degree he had a different degree he considered superior.  Again, I'm sorry for the confusion.

I've said a lot of things in this thread that were read differently than I meant them, so let me clarify my position:  I don't think engineers are smarter or better people.  I do think they are more prepared to enter an engineering job in the Navy than other people are.  And yes, I'm pretty defensive about this, because I worked hard for that degree and the thought that engineering jobs that I or others like me could apply for would be given to non engineers does bother me in principle.  It's about the same in any skilled trade or profession.  I'd hate to see medical jobs given to engineers (drastic example, but sort of conveys my feelings). 

As a matter of fact, I don't really consider myself the most qualified for this job, because my engineering discipline isn't as closely related to the job as it could be.  So in that sense, I'm not being unfair; I think engineers should get preference in the process, but I also know for sure other engineering degrees were given preference over mine, and as much as that might not have been what I wanted I have to see the logic in it.

Everyone who has worked towards one or more of those 'pieces of paper' is proud of it (them). 

In the CF, you will earn many more.  All well worth being proud of

Which is why I should have probably just kept my mouth shut.  There's bound to be people out there reading this forum with just about every degree available.  All proud of their own achievements.  Makes this a touchy subject.

To be honest, I didn't know before this topic the CF accepted NCS Eng's who had anything other than an engineering, math, or science degree, so I didn't expect to ruffle any feathers.  An oversight on my part.  Oh well.

EDIT: GW, I sent you a PM regarding this subject, partly to clarify things, partly because I'd rather this was my last post on the subject as I've helped move this off topic.

[Ridgeline]

the thought that engineering jobs that I or others like me could apply for would be given to non engineers does bother me in principle.  It's about the same in any skilled trade or profession.  I'd hate to see medical jobs given to engineers (drastic example, but sort of conveys my feelings). 

Actually ... Last time I checked .. which was today... I was told you cannot enter engineering trades without an engineering or some science degree ... which I feel both are the "same" or just as hard.  I assume 4th year bio chemistry would not be the easiest for you?  just a thought ...

I can see a difference between a BA and a BSC or engineering ... obviously there are differences, however, I myself who has a BA in history would contend that history is indeed the hardest degree to get ...

Obviously any degree you get is important, and I don't think that just because one man has a science or engineering degree means in any way that he or she is Superior to anyone who chooses a BA ... Trust me I know engineers who have their masters who could not find their way out of a balloon... A degree is a degree ... all degrees are all hard to obtain, and they each deserve the same amount of respect.

My wife has her MArch ... but she doesn't think any less of me for studying Nazi's or military history ...

I'm not trying to burst your bubble, but an engineering degree is not the be all end all ... it's a degree, and it lets you do specific jobs ... congrats for getting it , however, do not assume that makes you any better then anyone , even if they do not have a degree

just my two cents

[Mattl86]

I'm not trying to burst your bubble, but an engineering degree is not the be all end all ... it's a degree, and it lets you do specific jobs ... congrats for getting it , however, do not assume that makes you any better then anyone , even if they do not have a degree

You are completely right of course.  My brother is doing a BA in History actually.  Makes him no less of a person than me, though it certainly opens up a different set of job opportunities.

More on topic, is there anyone out there still in the application process waiting on a NOAB?  Have the been informed which wau the next NOAB will be conducted, phone or full NOAB?  My recruiter said there was a chance this phone interview might become standard.

[theSeaDog]

I've said a lot of things in this thread that were read differently than I meant them, so let me clarify my position:  I don't think engineers are smarter or better people.  I do think they are more prepared to enter an engineering job in the Navy than other people are.  And yes, I'm pretty defensive about this, because I worked hard for that degree and the thought that engineering jobs that I or others like me could apply for would be given to non engineers does bother me in principle.

In my opinion, people on this board tend to make sport out of attacking unqualified statements. Not that they are wrong, but it tends to lead threads downhill. I say you are making an unqualified statement because you are making assumptions about what the job requires before you even know. For the NCSE position, they accept several engineering degrees as the preferred degree, as well as some science as acceptable degrees. Most of what you need to know to perform this job.... they teach you. It's years of training before you're "qualified" as an NSCE. I believe there are a few courses during the engineering phase training that Electrical engineers don't have to do, but other than that, be prepared to adjust your assumptions. There are technical aspects to this position, but you're not going to be Scotty; the majority of the post is administrative, managerial type duties.

A degree is a piece of paper regardless of what is written there; certainly, it's still something to be proud of. The fallacy of the recent undergrad is to assume their degree makes them automatically qualified in their chosen field. When I was assisting my last company in recruiting the manager told me, "I don't care what their degree is. All it tells me is they can learn, and they can apply themselves." In the end we chose a guy that had no degree, 5 years of experience and was a self taught programmer over one guy that had a B.Eng in software engineering and a 4.0 average.

Be proud, but don't be arrogant. In the face of experience, a degree is a piece of paper.

As an aside, I was Computer Science; while I was at university, we thought we were better than everyone - except physics, but we viewed ourselves as on par with them.

[gcclarke]

I didn't mean it as an absolute statement.  I'll take responsibility for any confusion in that regard.  I certainly don't want to come off as someone with all the answers before I even start my CF career.
We could debate this forever.  I would point out that the written communication skills needed as an officer might more closely relate to the professional report style of writing engineers are used to, but I'm not in a position to speak on this with any authority.

Anyway, it's obvious you don't have an engineering degree and it's equally obvious I do, so it's not suprising you and I disagree on it being more applicable to the NCS Engineering job than a history degree.

Just for the record, I graduated in 2004 with a BSc in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Calgary, and am currently serving as the Assistant Combat Systems Engineering Officer aboard Her Majesty's Canadian Ship VANCOUVER. So, suffice it to say I have a rough idea both of the skills required to be a Naval Engineer, and what it takes to make it through an engineering degree.

The post you were responding to when you decided to go ahead and make completely unwarranted assumptions wasn't me trying to say that people with non-engineers would make better engineering officers. It was my attempt to dispell the notion that the mere fact that someone is able to get through an engineering degree makes them: A) Smarter; B) Better equipped to handle stress; C) Harder working; or D) Better at the job of an NTO; compared to their non-engineering brethren.

I will say that I think that having an engineering degree makes it either more likely that someone would be able to successfully complete their training and become trade qualified, or at least make it easier for the person. For CSEs at least, I think a very large part of this would be because both engineering and our ashore training are very math intensive. At least on my course, the ones who struggled the most were those who came from non-engineering backgrounds. Our course is basically an 8 month crash course in electrical engineering; I can see how it would be difficult to do that while attempting to teach yourself calculus and differential equations at the same time. I can't really say what the case may be for the MSE side of the house.

However, that having been said, once they do get trained up, those with Math or Comp Sci or Geophysics degrees or whatever else is on the "acceptable degree" list can certainly make perfectly competent engineering officers.

[alejo]

It`s sad how some underestimate the value of a degree. If finishing university was so easy, then how come not everyone has done it?

I know that comparing military life to university life is not possible, but in general, someone with a university degree is better prepared than someone without it. If this wasn't the case, then I would see no logic in requiring a university degree to become an officer. This happens also in most government jobs, where a university degree is required to be even able to apply.

Now as to some degrees being harder than others, there is really no way of knowing, unless you have multiple degrees. What I do notice is that people in humanities and social sciences usually have more free time than people doing pure sciences, especially chemistry and physics. This is perhaps due to the fact that most of the science degrees take a lot of the student's time doing labs.

In any case, I do not mean to add more fuel to the fire, but I just wanted to make my case on the importance of going to university and getting a degree. It is definitely more than a piece of paper. In fact, I could care less about that piece of paper, since I don't even hang it on my wall. But the reasoning, analytical, research, and many other skills that I acquired, have surely given me some great tools that will help me in the future of my career.

[Ridgeline]

What I do notice is that people in humanities and social sciences usually have more free time than people doing pure sciences, especially chemistry and physics. This is perhaps due to the fact that most of the science degrees take a lot of the student's time doing labs.

Good Point,  My friends with Science degrees never went to the pub as often as us History majors did

[forgiven]

It is definitely more than a piece of paper. In fact, I could care less about that piece of paper, since I don't even hang it on my wall. But the reasoning, analytical, research, and many other skills that I acquired, have surely given me some great tools that will help me in the future of my career.

Agree.  The treasure does not lie in that piece of paper, but in the journey itself.

Peace everyone!

[theSeaDog]

It`s sad how some underestimate the value of a degree. If finishing university was so easy, then how come not everyone has done it?

I know that comparing military life to university life is not possible, but in general, someone with a university degree is better prepared than someone without it. If this wasn't the case, then I would see no logic in requiring a university degree to become an officer. This happens also in most government jobs, where a university degree is required to be even able to apply.

I'd say cost is the reason not everyone has done it. That, and perhaps personal interest and learning style. However you cannot assume that it makes you better or more capable than someone.

It doesn't mean you are better prepared, it means you meet a standard. Someone without the degree (say a serving NCM) could easily be better prepared for it than you. It's all good. Hubris lasts until the Chiefs get a hold of ya

An engineer gets a bit more practical experience while attending university, but you have to consider that to even become a Professional Engineer requires at least a two-four year post grad internship.

University gives you a good base within your field. You learn the "basics" from which you can further grow your knowledge of the field. You said it correctly later in your post:

But the reasoning, analytical, research, and many other skills that I acquired, have surely given me some great tools that will help me in the future of my career.

There's the real value of university. It extends to most degrees.

[George Wallace]

It`s sad how some underestimate the value of a degree. If finishing university was so easy, then how come not everyone has done it?

I think that a reply earlier by theSeaDog would have corrected your preception, but I guess not.  You'll mature some day and understand what he was saying.  Funny thing that.....maturity.

I know that comparing military life to university life is not possible, but in general, someone with a university degree is better prepared than someone without it. If this wasn't the case, then I would see no logic in requiring a university degree to become an officer. This happens also in most government jobs, where a university degree is required to be even able to apply.

I disagree with this tendency of Government, that was 'forced' on the DND and the CF by our political masters who worship pieces of paper framed up on walls above their desks to prove to the world that they are superior.  It is a false concept.  I will not get into the incompetence we see in some of our senior bureaucrats who have numerous pieces of paper framed and hanging on walls above their desks in all levels of government, and focus on one thing, the CF.  A Degree does not make you a Leader.  Just because you hold a Degree does no mean that you have the qualities required to be an officer in the CF.  Many of you smart arses are going to FAIL on you Basic courses, or later on your Trades Courses.   A Degree is not going to guarantee you a PASS.  There are many others who are now disenfranchised from becoming officers, who have natural leadership and people skills because they do not have a Degree.  They will now have to struggle through the Education System and get a Degree if they do want to become an officer, where before they would have already been climbing up through the officer ranks.  The CF may face the loss of many excellent Leaders due to these knee jerk decisions made by the Chrétien government to justify some concept they had about what our officer Corps should be.

Now as to some degrees being harder than others, there is really no way of knowing, unless you have multiple degrees. What I do notice is that people in humanities and social sciences usually have more free time than people doing pure sciences, especially chemistry and physics. This is perhaps due to the fact that most of the science degrees take a lot of the student's time doing labs.

Or perhaps you were not as smart, or perhaps have as high an IQ, as they.  Who knows?  (Although I would tend to agree with you........Wait!  No I don't.  The Engineer faculty were the biggest party animals at my university and every university I visited.)

In any case, I do not mean to add more fuel to the fire, but I just wanted to make my case on the importance of going to university and getting a degree. It is definitely more than a piece of paper. In fact, I could care less about that piece of paper, since I don't even hang it on my wall. But the reasoning, analytical, research, and many other skills that I acquired, have surely given me some great tools that will help me in the future of my career.

Then why did you get me in the mood to rant over your opening statement, if you really don't care.  In the end, as theSeaDog says, don't let the falacy that your Degree is somehow superior to what others may have, as it really means very little when the CF will be teaching you all you need to know about your future Trade.  Nothing in your previous education will have prepared you for this, other than some good study habits, good communication skills (now a lost art at most institutions of higher learning today), .......and that is about it.

[CDN Aviator]

*cough* NOAB *cough*