Topic: Relevance and Usefullness of Police Foundations?

[Tommy]

I started to think as I was responding to a comment on the firefighters thread about the vast difference between the College Programs, Fire, Paramedic, and Police.

to my understanding both the Fire and EMS courses require alot more discipline and fitness and encompass a much greater level of hands-on Direct training. by that i mean, what you learn in school you will use directly in your job. whereas I found that the Police Foundations Course focused on alot of theoretical information, or on things you will simply re-learn, or on things that are outside your arcs as a Uniformed Police Constable (ie: Forensics.)

So I guess my real question goes out to those who have been there and now wear the T-Shirt.

How usefull was the Course compared to the training you recieved at your respective academy (Depot, OPC, CPC, etc...)

and i guess this one is kinda loaded... Other then being used for resume padding is Police Foundations a Better course to take over say a different college level course?

Your Opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Also, If you have/are taking the program, how do you feel about it? Relevance, level of training recieved, quality of instructors, etc...

Thanks!

 - Josh

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I can give you [and please tell your friends] one course NOT to take....do not, I repeat, do not waste your time taking the 2 year Corrections course. I don't know how the instructors on those courses can look at themselves in the mirror in the morning for stealing some poor kids money.

[zipperhead_cop]

My experiences with college were pretty good.  It was called Law and Security Foundations at the time but it was a good overview of law enforcement.  Per Se I could have learned everything that I needed to at OPC, but it sure made OPC a breeze.  As well, it afforded me the opportunity to get involved in some law enforcement specific volunteer work ie) fund raising for Crime Stoppers, being a "bad guy" in uniform officer training scenarios (nothing says dedication like getting your *** kicked at your own request for a day). 
Also, a big factor is who will be teaching you.  My instructors included an ex-Ident officer, three Detective Sergeants and a city counsellor.  Since the college class is small and interactive, they actually get to know you and will remember your name.  That is a big bonus once you get past your interview.  Our department sends out a list of hopefuls at the very end of the application process to all officers and asks if anyone has had any contact, good or bad, with the person. *ding* Easy good reference.
No doubt there is some filler crap that you wont need, but at St. Clair College here in Windsor the program was great.  I have been told that Fanshaw in London is good, and Seneca up in King City around the GTA is one of the first and best ones. 
Conversely, the recent hires around these parts that are university educated tend to be book smart and street dumb (kind of a theme on this site too, actually ).  I would have to say, at least in Windsor, college is an advantage over university. 
There is a saying "if you want an education, go to university.  If you want a job, go to college".

[Hatchet Man]

Humber has a good program, Centennial needs work.  From the recruiters perspective, post-secondary education of any kind is just a tick in the box.  That said many agencies that employ Special Constables (like the TTC, most universities, Toronto Housing)  require you to have a police foundations diploma as a minimum requirement.  Something to keep in mind.

[Sappo]

See my reply in the firefighters thread for more insight...

But this is what I want to see, some discussion to help me decide if they want to keep my $1300 for this semester or give it back



I can agree with alot said so far, namely from the course itself, they TALK alot about 'being police officers' but never teach you anything near it, except the criminal code. Mostly it is 'who is going into corrections, who is going into security'. Mind you my campus (Georgian College) has some great teachers, ex OPP, ex RCMP, ex Local Police etc etc. But I just cant get over the fact that they teach such mind-numbing theory that they could spend their time much better teaching more needed subjects... the OPC can teach us what the rest.

I know of... at least 2 people who I work with currently, doing security. I wont tell you where, but suffice to say it is not the most glamorous security job and it is probably the one that people dispise the most Anyways, at least 2 of my co-workers have completed PFP or Law&Security, and they are both still security guards... the one person I know of has failed their ATS testing at least 3 times so far.. and the other fellow simply got tired of it and lazy after taking the 2-3 years for college to finish.

I am kind of leaning now towards dropping this program where it stands now, and moving on towards armored car services, or even just applying directly for a force (or the OPP cadet program).

I am honesty I have alot of volunteer work under my belt, I am working security currently, and 031R... I dont really think that a PFP diploma is going to help me THAT much, and I would be better spend using the time to prepare myself and get more experience.

Thoughts comments?

[zipperhead_cop]

I can agree with alot said so far, namely from the course itself, they TALK alot about 'being police officers' but never teach you anything near it, except the criminal code. Mostly it is 'who is going into corrections, who is going into security'. Mind you my campus (Georgian College) has some great teachers, ex OPP, ex RCMP, ex Local Police etc etc. But I just cant get over the fact that they teach such mind-numbing theory that they could spend their time much better teaching more needed subjects... the OPC can teach us what the rest.

What are you under the impression that you should be being taught?  The idea is that you have a good theoretical base so you can ultimately go out and apply the law.  Don't expect to see vehicle pursuits and tactical hostage rescue being taught in a community college.

I know of... at least 2 people who I work with currently, doing security. I wont tell you where, but suffice to say it is not the most glamorous security job and it is probably the one that people despise the most Anyways, at least 2 of my co-workers have completed PFP or Law&Security, and they are both still security guards... the one person I know of has failed their ATS testing at least 3 times so far.. and the other fellow simply got tired of it and lazy after taking the 2-3 years for college to finish.

Okay, and their lack of career progression is the programs fault....?  Failing testing and "tired and lazy" are not two marketable qualities in police candidates.  Liberal MP's, but not police.

I am kind of leaning now towards dropping this program where it stands now, and moving on towards armored car services, or even just applying directly for a force (or the OPP cadet program).

Sure.  Hey, if you aren't busy this weekend, why don't you win a Nobel prize?  Just fer fun.  Getting hired is quite a bit more difficult than you think.  If you can pull it off, then just get hired with no education.  ATS will be thrilled to take your money.

I am honesty I have alot of volunteer work under my belt, I am working security currently, and 031R... I dont really think that a PFP diploma is going to help me THAT much, and I would be better spend using the time to prepare myself and get more experience.

Failing to complete something you chose to start never looks good on a resume.  If you start a two year course, finish it.  In two years.  If you are that unhappy with the course, switch to something else and transfer the credits.  Just leaving it hanging will not be helpful for you.

Thoughts comments?

Yer Welcome

[GO!!!]

As I understand it, the PF course was a requirement by one of the higher levels of government to justify paying police officers more than entry level labour wages. (which is a good idea)

It was a hard sell to explain why a police officer should make more than the other uniformed services (corrections/paramedics/firefighters) when their training was often of a shorter duration, even though they have far greater responsibilities.

I would also point out that these colleges are often not looking out for the best interests of the students, like Monkhouse said, they often teach useless classes under the premise that they will land you a good job later, or will somehow help your applications. These are businesses after all! (2 year office administration course anyone?) I know five RCMP officers, they said that aside from the character and security clearance, life experience was paramount, a University degree was excellent, and PF was last, and somewhat redundant, given that you learn everything you need to know at depot.

In all fairness, they did say that taking a semester of PF might be a good idea so that you would know if you liked it or not, but that it was far from the "key" to get you a job as a cop.

[Sappo]

What are you under the impression that you should be being taught?  The idea is that you have a good theoretical base so you can ultimately go out and apply the law.  Don't expect to see vehicle pursuits and tactical hostage rescue being taught in a community college.

Granted... but they should be leaning more towards police.. instead of security work and corrections (which seems to be the focus) provide co-op terms with police forces, the chance to do volunteer work WITH police instead of just dances and fundraisers, have daily or bi-daily fitness classes instead of the 2 a week we get now. And I also feel there should entrance requirements for the course... much like the Fire Fighters courses. Way too many people have I seen who are morbidly overweight doing PFP, take the time to get fit BEFORE wasting your money on the course.

Okay, and their lack of career progression is the programs fault....?  Failing testing and "tired and lazy" are not two marketable qualities in police candidates.  Liberal MP's, but not police.

Not saying it is the programs fault, but alot of people get discourged easily... if they brought more interactivity into the course people might get more energized about contiuing. Basically people are getting the impression that if you take PFP, you can graduate and sit back afterwards while waiting for the call from the local police sgt. doing recruiting saying you're hired.

Sure.  Hey, if you aren't busy this weekend, why don't you win a Nobel prize?  Just fer fun.  Getting hired is quite a bit more difficult than you think.  If you can pull it off, then just get hired with no education.  ATS will be thrilled to take your money.

Oh come on... there is no need to belittle me and present it as a near impossible task to get hired without taking a " community college" course as you said earlier. I have spoken to many a police officer, retired and active who see PFP as a great inital step if you are fresh out of high-school... since they will not be getting hired for another 4-5 years regardless. And I know again from speaking to people, that there are certain police services who will look at a candidate WITHOUT PFP over someone with PFP, simply because they want a person with live experience and not a fancy looking resume.

Failing to complete something you chose to start never looks good on a resume.  If you start a two year course, finish it.  In two years.  If you are that unhappy with the course, switch to something else and transfer the credits.  Just leaving it hanging will not be helpful for you.

This is true and I do agree on that part... starting something and not finishing it will look bad, I am looking into changing to a different course that will offer more of what I am looking for (I noticed a firearms instructor course). However there is NO good reason for spending large sums of money on something you do NOT want to do. If that is the case I would like your life savings in mostly $50's and some $20's

Yer Welcome

At least you put a smilie, no sense to turn this into an argument... the starter of the thread wanted constructive criticism on the usefullness of PFP... and that is my .2

So more comments to think about from me... I just get the feeling that, and this might be my campus in particular... but there is so much more they could offer the students to really boost them ahead for the job. Things like the restricted and non-restricted firearms license... which has been offered to the students, through an outside source. Why doesnt the school just offer this every year to all the students? They all end up taking it anyways... seems kind of pointless to have to say 'go talk to this guy for that training'.  Also on that thought... I noticed that my campsus' law and security course offers a co-op placement... mind you its more money, but its there none-the-less. Why on earth would the law and security course (which would appear to be tailored more towards corrections and security) offer a co-op with police, and the POLICE FOUNDATIONS course (figure it out) not do the same... it just baffles my mind really. There is such a wealth of knowledge from a co-op placement that students are missing out on.

Oh well, let me know what else you think and hey, criticism is good. Considering I am heading in on monday to discuss my options with the co-ordinator.

[Sappo]

Oh and also for cpl. thompson's first question... the instructors I have had are all top notch... they enhance the course.. but if they are just teaching crap content than they cant help it.

I have had 4 ex police officers, 1 university grad with years and years in psychology and other fields, 1 or 2 possibly current police officers... our fitness teacher has taught numerous swat/tactical teams and is highly regarded in her field.

So suffice to say our teachers are a cut above.

Let me leave it at that

[Tommy]

im with Sappo on his last comment. Our instructors at humber were, for the most part a good cross section in qualified persons, with several retired and still serving police officers, as well as a couple of other related jobs, ie social worker, parole officer, etc.. my complaint has always been more with the content being taught, and the lack of any kind of co-op program. Zipperhead does make a valid point, obviously there will be certain things that simply cannot be taught to a PFP class due to legal reasons, or simply for common sense. though it would have been nice to not just hear about arrest procedures but maybe see an example of it. though, if each service has different protocal then obviously that wouldnt work....  I also had/have a major problem with the lack of PT on the course... it should be an every day class.... if you have a problem with exercise, then policing is not a career you should get into... I remember talking to a former member of the Toronto ETF who is now with Int. and he told me in the ETF's Gym there is a big poster up showing a gym in a prison with several very large criminal looking men on it with the slogan "For every day you dont work out, They do."   I have yet to graduate, due to financial problems (ran out of money) but at the same time I am still in the process of trying to get  hired. I wouldnt say no to going back to school, but if the police asked me if they thought I needed the program to be a better Cop, I dont think I would say yes. It gave me a great insight into the world of policing but I feel that with the experiance I have now, combined with the Training I would recive at the Academy, I would be qualified to do the job. and do it well. however, if that doesnt work out then, hey, save up some coin and go back to finish what i started once I pay off some of my debt.

regards
 - josh

[zipperhead_cop]

I guess I should count myself as lucky for the course I took.  Your complaints of non relevance and lack of physical fitness training were not a problem at St Clair College.  It is unfortunate that the course is not more interesting there.
Ultimately, life experience will be the deciding factor.  Education is good, but you should keep up your volunteer work.  Don't just do stuff that is fun, either, such as coaching hockey etc.  That is great if you do, but so do the other 5000 applicants.  Try to get stuff that makes your qualifications stand out.  Look into working in a continuing care or palliative ward at a hospital.  Serving mush food to dying people is a very humbling experience. 
Second language is good, too.  Everybody has some French, but most colleges have a decent sign language course available, and you will come across a lot more deaf people than Francophones in your career (unless you are in Quebec)
The Nobel comment was just pulling your ya-ya's.  I failed to put a smiley icon with it so: 
Self motivation will be key as you apply to places.  Don't get discouraged.  Decide that you will be hired and you will not settle for anything less.  It's just up to whatever force who gets to have you first.
Good luck.

[Hatchet Man]

Sappo, in regards to your comments about what community colleges should offer as part of the curriculum (daily PT, more dynamic class)  you have to realize that in order for a program to be subsidized by the province they have to follow a set standard curriculum that varies very little from college to college.  Also some colleges may not have the facilities to offer the kind of classes you enivision.  If you are really interested in taking in taking highly Police oriented program save your money and go to that private college that has the ads on tv (thier site is www.policefoundations.org).  Since they are a private institution they offer a few things community colleges can't or won't (firearms training, DT).

[Baloo]

To anyone who is seriously considering a career in policing, law, security, customs, etc., I am going to plug the University of Guelph-Humber, and their Justice Studies program. Its a four year course, where student will earn a Bachelor of Applied Science (Justice Studies), along with a Diploma in either Police Foundations (what I am taking) or Law and Security. Even though it is only my second semester at this school, I have nothing but the highest kudos for the staff and professors at this institution. Most of my profs that deal directly with justice, law, policing courses all have substantial experience (with either police, corrections, lawyer, etc) and are very immersed in their fields. The classes are small, with most being no bigger than 50 - 60 people (for a university...that is quite rare), and you can get on a name-to-name basis with your prof.

I've had my little spiel. Carry on...

[zipperhead_cop]

But wouldnt that mean you would have to spend time in Guelph?  No career is worth that
 

[Baloo]

But wouldnt that mean you would have to spend time in Guelph?  No career is worth that
 

Sir, you have dropped the gauntlet, and I call you out on the field of honour. 

But actually, the campus is on Humber North, so its in Etobicoke. Which might be worse than being in Guelph.

[zipperhead_cop]

I agree.  Guelph is better.  I actually had one brilliant night in Tundra Lower 2 at U of G back in the fall of 1988.  Ahh, lovely farm girls.  How ample are thee?

[Baloo]

I agree.  Guelph is better.  I actually had one brilliant night in Tundra Lower 2 at U of G back in the fall of 1988.  Ahh, lovely farm girls.  How ample are thee?

Ever been to the Stampede Ranch? I don't know if you like country, but...

[Sappo]

Hatchett Man you *******... why are you springing this private college one me NOW

I forgive you... but seriously... look at those students! Those students want to learn... want to become police officers... uniformity. I LIKEY.

Anyone looking for a roomate in mississauga?

Although I take it from the 'we will discuss the fee when you speak with a counsellor' that the fee would make most people run for cover?

Any thoughts on that?

I know the first private college I went to for computer network engineering... cost me a BUTTLOAD, and I am still paying that one off too.

Although the 10 month as opposed to 2 year is REALLY eye-catching.

OOh, and firearms training.. dear lord.

*salivates*

[zipperhead_cop]

Ever been to the Stampede Ranch? I don't know if you like country, but...

Yup, I like both kinds of music...but, yes, we hijack...

Sappo--don't worry too much about the firearms stuff.  Fun to be sure, but you don't want to come off over eager.  Try to seem like the "firm-yet-community-conscious" officer that just cares so damn much about every damn thing.  Once you are on, you get a free gun and (at least around here) unlimited ammo.  You can go join an IPSC club and shoot yer brains out.  Ok, not literally.

[Tommy]

...(at least around here) unlimited ammo...

Thats Because youre on the Detroit Border... Detroit.... the only city I drove through in a military vehicle, with weapon and still felt i was underequipped......

still couldnt get over how there was litteraly a liquor store or fried chicken stand every block and a half......

[Sappo]

Now im being told over-eager is a bad thing... ? I can understand what you're saying about not wanting to look like a gun nut... but my understanding is bring all the skills you can to the table. Which I intend to do

[Bruce Monkhouse]

MOD HIJACK....Gryphs Sports Bar this Friday, 2200 hours, 1 beer[ cause then I play at 2230]...always lots after ....
Look for a big old guy wearing a black army.ca golf shirt.......

[Sappo]

While on this particular topic too.... does anyone have any working information of armoured car services? As far as job training.. pay.. getting your foot in the door for a law enforcement job?

The company I work for right now, Group 4 Falck, which is now Group 4 Securicor, I am looking into transferring to the Securicor side for armoured car work.... I know the pay is better than what I am making now (its not hard to beat my pay).

Anyone work FOR them? Worked for them?

Lets see what info you guys have

[zipperhead_cop]

While on this particular topic too.... does anyone have any working information of armoured car services? As far as job training.. pay.. getting your foot in the door for a law enforcement job?

The company I work for right now, Group 4 Falck, which is now Group 4 Securicor, I am looking into transferring to the Securicor side for armoured car work.... I know the pay is better than what I am making now (its not hard to beat my pay).

Anyone work FOR them? Worked for them?

Lets see what info you guys have

All I know is that getting shot for someone else's money is a bad idea.  I used to work along side of the Brinks guys when I worked at the casino, and they all pretty much hated their job, although I think it had more to do with the local managment.

[zipperhead_cop]

MOD HIJACK....Gryphs Sports Bar this Friday, 2200 hours, 1 beer[ cause then I play at 2230]...always lots after ....
Look for a big old guy wearing a black army.ca golf shirt.......

What city is that in?