Topic: Relevance and Usefullness of Police Foundations?

[Hatchet Man]

Well Hatchet Man my idea behind the 'link' between police services and PFP would be that it would be such a intensive POLICE oriented course, that it would almost eliminate the need for ATS etc... you could take the course... and pretty much walk right into the recruiting Sergeants officer afterwards and say "We worked together, will you hire me" type of deal.

My vision of such a closly knit college+police program will never ever happen, but it is nice to dream

Don't get me wrong I have taken PFP at two colleges and I would love to see more of the hard police skillset integrated into the program.  But I don't think that will happen either, but probably for a different reason.  When I was at Humber, one of profs (R Stansfield) was telling a group of people in my ethics class that original idea behind the PFP was it was going to be a pre-req to being hired but all it would teach is what is taught now (ie all the laws and theories).  And that OPC would be free to concentrate on hardskills.  This as we know has not happened, for whatever reason.  Given that the PFP was solely created to impart all the soft skills a potential officer would need, and that the teaching of ALL the hard skills would be left to OPC (to candidates fully vetted by their respective services I might add), I highly doubt public colleges will be allowed to teach those hardskills.  Private Career Colleges can those skills if they wish and still grant you a PFP diploma so long as they teach all the compulsory course mandated by the government. Of course you pay through the nose to go to a private career college.

As well, even if colleges were permitted to teach those hard skills, you would/should need to do thorough background and psychological tests on potential students (especially if those colleges were conducting DT, and firearms training).  Some of the people here at Centennial I hope NEVER become police officers (either they are dimwitted in-conpentent nitwits, or they are criminals).  This would definitely jack up the tuition.  Also I don't care how "involved" police recruiters get, their would still be no job guarantees, as any service looking to avoid liability issues (cough Toronto cough) would still do their own interviews/medicals/psych tests just to cover their asses.  All of which you could still potentially FAIL.

The current system in Ontario may not be perfect, but I personally believe it is better than most (how many other systems are out their that allow you to apply to many different police services at the same time without having to do a test for each individual service?).  Some of you (rudiger), just need to face facts. Not everyone is going to be hired and there is NO law that says you have a right to be a Police Officer, it is a PRIVILEGE plain and simple.  $300-500 (depending on how many times you redo the tests like the PREP) is not whole lot to pay for that privilege all things considered.  Its cheaper than a 2 year diploma, and way cheaper than a 4 year degree, in the States many services REQUIRE a degree (think of how much a degree costs down there) or X number of years of ACTIVE duty MILITARY experience (considering Iraq and Astan, and how many US servicemen are killed and injured each day, the costs you could incur are far beyond any monetary value you might pay for school).  So I will continue to pay my $67 every 6 months, and I won't stop trying to get onto a service until I get a letter telling me that I should stop because I will never get on.   

[little ruddiger (Banned)]

Thompson and Sappo, I would strongly urge you to finish what you started at PFP. If you don't finish it I can tell you right now that one of the big questions in the interview will be why not and they will use it to rattle you. If you need to take time-off, do it but going back and getting your diploma is the right move.

With the way that PFP is currently set-up some universities have articulation agreements that get you a year's worth of university credits for your college diploma. If your marks are good you can also get Academic Excellence Scholarships that save you even more if you choose to go to university. With university tuition and books running at about $6000 per year it is an excellent avenue for higher education. The CF also will pick-up up to $2000 for every school year. I believe that this bursary is available to NCM's as well as Officer Cadets but your recruiter can tell you. Add to this a decent B-Class in the summer and your laughing as far as the cost of a university degree.

After I finished PFP I had these facts staring me in the face at the same time I was spinning my wheels waiting to hear back from police services. I said "fornicate this" I am going to university and getting my commission, I liked it so much I stuck around. I know that being an officer and getting degrees is not for everyone but you can see how the option to keep throwing my money down the ATS pit was a less attractive.

I assume you guys have been through CF recruiting and they treat you like you are an adult. They show mutual respect to their applicants and seem to genuinely appreciate that you show an interest in joining. Police services, in comparison, act like they wouldn't give you the steam off their pee. Hatchet Man what you wrote is well worded and you have put thought into what you say and I respect that but, if you honestly think that all police applicants are on any even field and get a fair deal, than I have some property I would like to sell to you .

One of the reason that I see the RCMP and Peel systems as superior is that members of the service you apply to are actually in the room. You have to admit that seeing your applicants perform the tests and their reactions and interactions with others should be important to recruiters. Not to mention what they can learn about you if they are in the college watching how you progress through a two year program.

You are right that dollar for dollar college is more expensive than ATS but it is no secret that post-secondary education is becoming more and more essential for good employment. You are not going to OSAP, bursaries, scholarships or a line of credit to do ATS you will either put it on your credit card or mom and dad pay.

To Zipperhead I am not trying to offend but come on, 4 and 10 years for the police to hire you is crazy, I bet that you and your buddy were likely not that much more employable in the end then when you started the process. A lot of people who would be good cops will pull-up stakes and move on and it is a shame. Yes it shows dedication to keep it at for so long but some people get hired within weeks and that is what I am talking about when I say the process is fickle and arbitrary.

[Baloo]

Hey, Hatchet Man, Ron Stansfield (if we're talking about the same guy...most likely, we are indeed) is the head of the Justice Studies program at the University of Guelph-Humber. Really good guy.

[GO!!!]

rudigger,

I think that police forces are already having some problems meeting their recruiting goals. Edmonton wants to hire something like a hundred officers this year, and they are having real problems with recruiting, even with an army base of 5600 in the city, and a median age far below the national average. 

I think that the institutional arrogance that police forces exhibited in terms of recruiting for the last 10-15 years is coming back to bite them in the a$$ now, because no keen, employable young man is going to work a shyte job for five years while waiting for the EPS to realise he is worth hiring. I recently watched a friend of mine apply, to the EPS and the RCMP. He jumped through all of the hoops for both, was given an offer of employment, and waited, and waited and waited. While he was waiting, he started working as an apprentice plumber. By the time the course date came (RCMP, then EPS) within a week of each other, he was making 27.50hr, with full benefits, more raises every 3 months and all the overtime he could handle. He told the police to stuff it, and is now starting his own company.

The days of the depressed economy, and quality recruits waiting months and years for a job are over. If our police forces are going to recruit the best, they will have to be alot more trasparent and timely in their processes, or they will be left with the candidates who are unemployable in other areas.

[Hatchet Man]

Hey, Hatchet Man, Ron Stansfield (if we're talking about the same guy...most likely, we are indeed) is the head of the Justice Studies program at the University of Guelph-Humber. Really good guy.

Yup, same guy when I was at Humber in Fall 02 he taught the ethics course in first semester. This was before Guelph-Humber started. That course was amazing, way better than Centennial.  I sat in on the ethics classes (had the transfer credit, but since I already paid for the course in my tuition, I opted to audit the class), and man did it suck.  Some of my other instructors at Centennial know Stansfield as well, and they all same the same thing.  That he is one hell of a prof and knows his stuff inside and out.  I happen to agree with them.  I really wanted to stay at Humber but the commuting distance from the East side of Scarborough (ie near Pickering) to either Humber campus was to much for me.

[Sappo]

Rudiger, the problem right now is mainly money for me.

I cant force myself to sit in these classes and watch my bank account get lower and lower... as it is I'm about 15k INTO my line of credit.

Working to try and repay that loan is enough in itself.. and if and when I get the loan paid off I cant see myself dropping another 6k just to take the course.

I am happy with my choice thus far, and already I am making new contacts and things are looking up.

Everyone is different, I plan on making it work this way

[little ruddiger (Banned)]

I totally understand what student debt is all about, it sucks. I try my best not to think about my own debt because it is scary and I am by no means the worse off student I know. Being a police officer is not a privilege it is a job and being treated fairly is a right. Plain and simple.

[zipperhead_cop]

After I finished PFP I had these facts staring me in the face at the same time I was spinning my wheels waiting to hear back from police services. I said "fornicate this" I am going to university and getting my commission, I liked it so much I stuck around. I know that being an officer and getting degrees is not for everyone but you can see how the option to keep throwing my money down the ATS pit was a less attractive.

So you are telling us that you hold a commission from Her Majesty, yet you refuse to complete the profile that all of the honourable real CF members on this site have?  My BS-O-meter is screaming in the red.

Police services, in comparison, act like they wouldn't give you the steam off their pee. Hatchet Man what you wrote is well worded and you have put thought into what you say and I respect that but, if you honestly think that all police applicants are on any even field and get a fair deal, than I have some property I would like to sell to you .

Ugh!  To go through life so bitter!  You quit the process.  Get over it.  You failed.

To Zipperhead I am not trying to offend but come on, 4 and 10 years for the police to hire you is crazy, I bet that you and your buddy were likely not that much more employable in the end then when you started the process. A lot of people who would be good cops will pull-up stakes and move on and it is a shame. Yes it shows dedication to keep it at for so long but some people get hired within weeks and that is what I am talking about when I say the process is fickle and arbitrary.

Wow!  To late.  If only I could have your magic eight ball to do my job I would have my city sewn up overnight.  I hope you use mouth wash for your enema's because you do a lot of talking out of your ***.
We both did a tonne of stuff to improve ourselves from start to finish.  And I probably didn't deserve the job the first time I applied, when I see what the guys that have that many more years on me had at the time I applied.   IF you really have what it takes, you will get on. 

I totally understand what student debt is all about, it sucks. I try my best not to think about my own debt because it is scary and I am by no means the worse off student I know. Being a police officer is not a privilege it is a job and being treated fairly is a right. Plain and simple.

No, it is a priveledge.  You have to earn it, and most do not. 

Sappo, do whatever is best for you.  Of the seven that I got hired with:  I had Law and Security, Queens Commission and lots of volunteer work.  Next guy:  five years jail guard, tonnes of volunteer work, BSc, next female with firefighter courses and security experience, no post secondary, next female:  Ms. Fitness Canada winner with paramedic job, next male:  owned his own landscaping business with a Masters of Kinesiology, next male:  BA in history, some volunteer, next female: no volunteer, no secondary, only ever worked as a waitress, next male:  dancer in an international dance troupe and volunteer with the RCMP.  The one thing we had in common--we can pass an interview.  That is the only thing that matters.  All this other crap is what gets you through the door and to an interview.  If you can't pull that off, then it won't matter if you are a brain surgeon and personally captured Osama Bin Laden.  (Oh, and we are all white)

[Sappo]

But... I got osama in my basement right now... DANG

[zipperhead_cop]

 

Stop letting him use your Barbie Sing'n'Record.  Yer gonna get caught.

[Spectrum]

No education is ever going to count against you.  What kind of learner were you in high school?  Were you good with books, or were you more hands on?  University is more pure theoretical knowledge at first and college is more directly applied. 
If paramedic interests you, go for it.  You will still get to deal with the crappiest elements of society (nobody calls for ambulances like the ghetto) and drive fast.  You just have to decide if you want to be the blood maker, or the blood patcher.

I don't feel like going to university for the hell of it, like most of my friends. After four years I'll graduate with a degree in basketweaving and be no more employable then I could be with a "useless" PF diploma.

However, I wouldn't mind being an officer in the military...the only thing that would really push me to go for a degree. Does anyone here know about mature applicant status with universities? I think I read once that if I complete a college program, even if I didn't take all university prep courses in school, I would still be considered?

I'm thinking police foundations would be a place to start. Hell, my friend's mom is a cop and said the criminals sometimes take it for kicks.

P.S I know all about the ghetto. There are paramedics at my school frequently, and I swear they might as well set up a police station in the parking lot.

[zipperhead_cop]

If you can get in as a DEO (do they have that anymore?) then go for it.  You can get your 20 years in and still be pretty marketable when you retire.  They you get a salary and draw your pension.  We hired a 43 year old guy that was an ex PPCLI and Canadian Parachute team member (I apologize for forgetting the teams name...SkyHawks?) and he is having a great time.  Makes enough jake to be a small aircraft instructor in his part time.  Then you can have the best of both worlds. 
Or be a bitter unemployed security guard advocate lobbing posts from your moms basement. 
Your choice.

[Tommy]

Or be a bitter unemployed security guard advocate lobbing posts from your moms basement. 

why do i get the feeling he also runs a comic book store....... (simpsons reference for you numptys out there)