Author Topic: Canadian Public Opinion Polls on Afghanistan  (Read 117935 times)

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Offline Lost_Warrior

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2006, 10:10:32 »
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this may sound trite, but I would rather die free than die a slave, and that is exactly what the people are under a tyrants rule.  No one should ever have to apologize for being free!

Very true, and I agree.   The thing I do not agree with is when people say that the Iraqi people are better off today than they were under Saddam.   This is not correct.  They are still in danger of death, and their country is slowly spiraling into chaos.   It all depends on what someone’s view of better off is.   The country held together under tyrannical rule, or the country tearing itself apart under a false veil of freedom.
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Offline Kirkhill

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2006, 10:43:32 »
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Now you have this chaos and a virtual civil war in Iraq that the Shiites, by sheer force of numbers, are bound to win.

If "sheer force of numbers" guaranteed a win how is it that the Shiites were subjugated by the Baathists for the last 30 years, or the Sunnis for the last 1400 years?  How did the Brits thrive in India with a presence numbered in the 10s and 100s of thousands in a population numbered in the 10s and 100s of millions?

There have been many examples of minorities ruling over majorities historically.  The Liberals and the Normans come to mind.  In fact it seems arguable that that is the norm, even in democratic societies.

In all this talk about failure in Iraq and troubles in Afghanistan the point that seems to be missed is not how easily the extremists and the young can be engaged but how worn out the majority of the population is.  It's hard to motivate tired people.  That actually gives the forces of order their best chance for success.

In the aftermath of the recent bombing of the Shia temple in Samarra some hot-heads from Sadr's neighbourhood beat up on easily accessible Sunni mosques in Baghdad.  Meanwhile Sunni and Shia paraded and prayed together in opposition to the terrorists in Samarra and Kut and in Basra Shia stood guard outside Sunni mosques to protect them.

Not everybody over there is 19 or a fanatic and itching for a fight.

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Offline Acorn

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2006, 13:39:30 »
this may sound trite, but I would rather die free than die a slave, and that is exactly what the people are under a tyrants rule.  No one should ever have to apologize for being free!

Not trite, however the vast majority of people really want "security" not "freedom," and that includes Americans.
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Offline Glorified Ape

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2006, 16:51:10 »
this may sound trite, but I would rather die free than die a slave, and that is exactly what the people are under a tyrants rule.  No one should ever have to apologize for being free!

Not to sound insulting (which I seriously am not trying to be) but it really doesn't make a lick of difference what YOU want, it's what they want. I won't speculate as to what "they" wanted prior to the invasion, after, or at any other point. It's dangerous to think that because you believe/want something, everyone else must too. Unfortunately, that kind of autocentrism seems to characterize the current US administration's attitude.
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Offline Kirkhill

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2006, 19:07:47 »
Freedom or Security.

Individual or Collective.

Country or Town.

Do it yourself or hire a tradesman.
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Offline 54/102 CEF

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2006, 19:08:48 »
In the short term what ever President Bush and his supporters do on the Eastern Front may seem demagogic.

Over the long term - since the late 80s - its more understandable.

If you disagree with Bush et al and think we should stay out - then thats great. But I challenge the naysayers to check out the CURRENT EVENTS FORUM for Thomas Barnett`s 305  MEG Video briefing that will jolt you.

What the briefing called "Shrinking the Gap — Globalization and US National Security," is all about

Since the end of the Cold War, the biggest threats to America and its allies come from underdeveloped, chaotic regions of the Third World. He calls these regions the "Gap," a zone disconnected from the economic and technological advances of globalization.

The briefing downlink http://www.sandia.gov/ACG/videos/TBarnett_June605_1123791436_457kbps.wmv

Note where there are no current deployments AFRICA - guess where your kids will be going.

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Offline Lost_Warrior

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2006, 09:27:01 »
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The mission was to get rid of Saddam

No.  The mission was to find WMD and dis-arm Saddam.   Had Saddam had no suspicion of having WMD's, he would be just another 3rd world dictator on the US map...   It was only after no WMD were found did the "reasoning" for invasion shift to "removing Saddam".

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stabilize the country (what we are doing) and then leave.

No, US forces are NOT stabilizing the nation.  The nation is at the brink of a civil war.  Insurgents are everywhere.  Bombs go off every day.  Not a day goes by without fear and bloodshed.  Unfortunately the latter might come before the former is complete.

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  I don't give a rats *** what kind of government they elect, that is up to them

Actually that’s quite the opposite.  Many Islamic leaders were blocked from the election campaign because their views were not considered "Western friendly"   The fact remains, Iraqi's only have the choice to vote for who the US approves to run a campaign.   Not really much freedom there.  "You can vote for who you want as long as we tell you who to vote for"
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2006, 10:07:42 »
No.  The mission was to find WMD and dis-arm Saddam.   Had Saddam had no suspicion of having WMD's, he would be just another 3rd world dictator on the US map...   It was only after no WMD were found did the "reasoning" for invasion shift to "removing Saddam".
And you will place all your credibility on this statement?
No, US forces are NOT stabilizing the nation.  The nation is at the brink of a civil war.  Insurgents are everywhere.  Bombs go off every day.  Not a day goes by without fear and bloodshed.  Unfortunately the latter might come before the former is complete.
After over sixty years, we still have troops 'of occupation' in Europe and Japan.  There is no "Magic Wand" that can be waved and make everything 'honky dory' afterwards.
Actually that’s quite the opposite.  Many Islamic leaders were blocked from the election campaign because their views were not considered "Western friendly"   The fact remains, Iraqi's only have the choice to vote for who the US approves to run a campaign.   Not really much freedom there.  "You can vote for who you want as long as we tell you who to vote for"
A truly biased comment and totally false.  You have skewed the facts to give a very prejudiced view of what is actually happening.  It may not be perfect, but it is a lot better a start than nothing at all in an area of the world that is rot with corruption.
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #58 on: February 26, 2006, 10:21:39 »
Just curious Lost Warrior, how did you know what Iraq was like before?.........maybe the free press? ::)
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Offline Lost_Warrior

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #59 on: February 26, 2006, 11:20:32 »
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And you will place all your credibility on this statement?

Well, if you think some years back, Bush got in front of the UN and demanded action be taken if the weapons inspectors are not allowed to do their jobs.  Never once did he say "We have to go into Iraq because Saddam is a madman"   Bush got in front of the UN and said either you enforce the UN resolutions regarding WMD or we will invade to disarm him. 

Now if you look at when Bush said "Are Security Council resolutions to be honored and enforced, or cast aside without consequence? Will the United Nations serve the purpose of its founding, or will it be irrelevant?" and then look back at the UN resolutions against Iraq with specific regard to resolution 1441.  This essentially gave the US the green light to attack if Saddam didn't "come clean" (as Bush called it) on it's weapons programs.    The deadline passed and the US invaded.   So given what Bush had presented as a reason to attack before the war, then yes.  I will place all my credibility on that statement.   It is after all, what Bush himself said.

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After over sixty years, we still have troops 'of occupation' in Europe and Japan.  There is no "Magic Wand" that can be waved and make everything 'honky dory' afterwards.

Ok, that's nice and all, but it really has nothing to do with Iraq now does it.   It is very clear now that the US administration had no defining exit strategy.  They didn't plan for these sorts of things, and now that it's happening, and support back home is dwindling, they are looking for the fastest way possible to leave the country in the hands of the new "government" to deal with.

Japan and Europe were two very different wars, and two very different times in history.  World War 2 was a legal, justified war.  The US was attacked and had to defend itself.  Last I recall, Iraq never attacked the US and was not even a direct threat to it’s closest neighbors…

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Just curious Lost Warrior, how did you know what Iraq was like before?.........maybe the free press?

I don't know what it was like before.  I only know what it is like now.  I go by what I see and read in the news.   One can claim that the media is run by Liberal leftists out to make the Bush administration look bad all they want.  The fact remains, what is happening in Iraq today cannot be denied with a silly picture...

On a side note, do you know what it was like in Iraq before?
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Offline Lost_Warrior

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2006, 11:24:49 »
And to give you the honest truth, at the beginning of the war, I was all for it.  I believed the "WMD threat" as well.   I checked under my bed every night for terrorists with WMD like the rest of them.   With the info we have now regarding the faulty Intel, and the invasion stance changes, and all the other political crap that has piled up since the invasion, I just can't agree with the war anymore.   

All I want to see now is the US administration clean up the mess they started.  Do I want them to pull out tomorrow?  Of course not.  That would only put the Iraqi people into more pain.  Do I think the US should not have been there in the first place?  Yes
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2006, 11:32:34 »
Quote,
On a side note, do you know what it was like in Iraq before?

Nope, can't say I did, but judging by all those people pulling down statues, hitting pictures with their shoes and generally dancing in the streets, it couldn't have been very good.

I do admit the insurgency was a wild card factor that no one saw coming.[ and probably should have] But, whom would have thought the hatred and the sheer brutality of Iraqians killing Iraqians would have been so intense?
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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2006, 11:47:16 »
"would have thought the hatred and the sheer brutality of Iraqians killing Iraqians would have been so intense"
Take out Sunnis and Sheas (sp) and Kurds and put in Serbs, Croats and Muslims
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Offline Lost_Warrior

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2006, 11:47:26 »
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I do admit the insurgency was a wild card factor that no one saw coming.[ and probably should have] But, whom would have thought the hatred and the sheer brutality of Iraqians killing Iraqians would have been so intense?

The US administration and their platoon of think tanks should have known.   The harmony (and I use that word very lightly) that Iraq experienced even with its religious sects each just looking for an excuse to lash out at one another was held together by the brutal dictatorship that Saddam ran.

Now that he's gone, these people can fight it out among each other.  This is something I even saw coming, but had confidence the US administration already had planned on.

The sort of civil war we are seeing right now would have never been possible under Saddam's rule.  He would just as easily cut their heads of in public executions than let it get this bad.

IMHO, the only way to save the country from itself is to divide it.   Give the Shiites and the Sunnis (and the Kurds to the north) their own territory and allow them to govern themselves.   The way it is now, one side will always have more representation than the other, and this is something they apparently can't live with.
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Offline teddy49

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2006, 13:25:41 »
I was actually going to quote that very sentence.  The Liberals have all but scared the Canadian public when it comes to foreign operations associated with the US.   In some cases with good reason, but in most others, out of vote grabs.

I respectfully disagree.   The US campaign in Iraq has been shrouded in controversy and lies.   The Iraqi's are no safer today than they were under Saddams rule (Some would speculate even less so)

This will probably get me crucified on this forum, but I believe the current state of Iraq today is far worse than what it was under Saddam.  The right wing nut cases have trumpeted the number of dead under Saddam under his rule as thousands a year, but the fact remains, the number of Iraqi dead this year alone far exceeds the number who were murdered under Saddam during any year of his reign of power.  If you want to take the current trend more long term, then more Iraqi’s will have been killed under US occupation than during the rule of Saddam.   The country is in chaos and on the brink of civil war.   I know many will come and counter this claim with pictures and stories of US forces accepting flowers and praise from the "Iraqi government" and Iraqi civilians, but for the majority on the ground, the situation is quite different.

I also know that a bunch of you will jump on me asking me if I have been there, and how I know.   I have not been there.   I have a friend from Washington who works for ABC news.  He has been there for 3 years now.  He went over during the beginning of the war, and returned home.  He went back about a year ago to cover stories there.  He told me the country is in a mess. 

I think I understand where this perception comes from.  But it is false.     http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=iz&v=26

From the CIA World Fact Book via this sight.  The death rate in Iraq has been going down steadily.

6.40 Deaths per thousand in 2000
5.84 Deaths per thousand in 2003
5.49 Deaths per thousand in 2005

For what it's worth
France
9.08 Deaths per thousand in 2005
Netherlands
8.68 Deaths per thousand in 2005
Switzerland
8.48 Deaths per thousand in 2005
Canada
7.73 Deaths per thousand in 2005
Australia
7.44 Deaths per thousand in 2005


Now then Lost _Warrior, as for your assertion that only American approved candidates stood for election, this is an utter falsehood.  I know that I'm offended by it and I'm sure that the clients I protect here would be as well.  I've been in Iraq for the last 14 months.  The client I presently work for and have worked for the last 5 months, is an NGO that is working on Iraq's political restructuring, with all the parties and coalitions thereof in the country.  They've worked with the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), the 555 party, The Iraqi Women's party, The Kurdish coalitions.  I've had representatives from Shia parties, Sunni parties, Secular Parties, and Kurdish parties in my compound on the same day.  As well my clients were instrumental in writing the constitution that was voted in by referendum last year.

I must respectfully ask that you check your facts a little more carefully and not just take the tripe offered by the BBC, CNN, CTV, CBC as gospel.  Or as the whole story.  It is not.

That said, I'm under no illusions that the reconstruction of this place is going at all well.  Part of the problem is that Iraq's infrastructure was in serious disrepair before the invasion.  Saddam spent copious amounts of money maintaining the facade that all was well, when in fact the infrastructure of this country was crumbling from underneath it.  The Americans have just inherited these problems and are now dealing with them.  Should they have forseen the insurgency?  Sure.  If only because nature abhors a vacuum.  Is a civil war inevitable?  That depends on the commitment of the Americans to stay the course, and have the flexibiltiy to take a long critical look at what's working here and what isn't.  I don't have a lot of faith in Bush Administration or the American people, in that regard.
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Offline Lost_Warrior

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2006, 14:47:58 »
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From the CIA World Fact Book via this sight.  The death rate in Iraq has been going down steadily.

6.40 Deaths per thousand in 2000
5.84 Deaths per thousand in 2003
5.49 Deaths per thousand in 2005

Actually you took what I said out of context.   The number of innocents dead has been going up as opposed to how many innocents were being killed at the hands of Saddam per year. 

And how many of those were actually Saddam's doing, and not caused by the UN sanctions on the country.

On a side note teddy, thanks for the input from someone on the ground.  It was very informative.
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Offline Pencil Tech

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2006, 15:17:21 »
 The harmony (and I use that word very lightly) that Iraq experienced even with its religious sects each just looking for an excuse to lash out at one another was held together by the brutal dictatorship that Saddam ran.

Kind of like Yugoslavia under Tito, or the USSR.

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2006, 17:16:49 »
Actually you took what I said out of context.   The number of innocents dead has been going up as opposed to how many innocents were being killed at the hands of Saddam per year. 
Amazing.  You are shown the figures that state that they numbers are dropping, and you don't believe them.

And how many of those were actually Saddam's doing, and not caused by the UN sanctions on the country.
One could argue that it was all Saddam's doing, even during UN sanctions, as he kept supplies and medicines from reaching those in need.  He filled his own needs and disregarded those of the people of Iraq.  The fact that there were UN sanctions is just a mote point.  He would have done so anyway, perhaps on a less grand scale, but still he would have deprived the people of what he could direct to his own family and needs. 

Lost Warrior, you are proposing an American conspiracy where there is none.
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Offline Kirkhill

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2006, 17:22:02 »
Very good point about Tito and the Stalinists Pencil Tech.

An argument can be made WRT Iraq, Cuba and North Korea that it is a "pay me now or pay me later" situation.  These "strong men" societies are not inherently stable.  When the strong man dies, the society crumbles, chaos reigns and innocents die in their thousands, if not their millions.

Saddam had to be redirected, and many interests were not interested in re-directing him, or replaced so as to reduce the chaos.  The only real question was how much chaos and on whose time table.
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Offline Lost_Warrior

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2006, 17:56:59 »
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Amazing.  You are shown the figures that state that they numbers are dropping, and you don't believe them.

I never said I did not believe the figures.  Please do not put words into my mouth.

Quote
Lost Warrior, you are proposing an American conspiracy where there is none.

I am proposing no such thing.   What I am doing however, is stating my dismay with the way the US went to war in Iraq, how they have conducted themselves and their lack of planning for the current chaos.   Nothing more, nothing less.   
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Offline Kirkhill

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Re: Majority opposed to Afghan mission
« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2006, 19:17:37 »
WRT Iraq - seeing as how we have moved off Afghanistan:

When the US was asking its own soldiers how many bodies the Army would require to secure Iraq it seems to me that the Army proposed a number that effectively denied the US any opportunity to involve itself in Iraq at all.  The Army effectively came back with a "you can't do that, you can't get there from here" solution. 

Whether the US was right or wrong to involve itself in Iraq (I think it was right) thus ultimately became immaterial.  If the US Forces, the most powerful such organization in the world, was saying that "there ain't nothing I can do" then the entire world order was put at risk.  That order is ultimately built on the basis of coercive force.  If the US wasn't powerful enough to coerce a place like Iraq how likely was it that the EU, Russia, China or India were going to be effective ( even if we wanted them to be so ). 

At the same time the US army, IMHO, really didn't want to get into the game that they are in.  It could be seen as a self-serving statement, "we can't help you" from an Army in which many did not want to get into the Small Wars/Constabulary/Co-In/Peace Support/Peace Keeping/3-Block War/Imperial Grunt business.

Unfortunately the US administration, the UN and the world at large need that capability ( not just from the US and not solely from the US ).  If the US Army could beg off as being incapable then that allows every other army to beg off.  That ultimately isn't good for international security, for the average citizen or for commerce.  Then we quickly run down hill to the post-Tito Yugoslavia on an international scale.

Whether the US Army wanted the job or not, or whether it was capable of the job or not, the US needed the US Army to do that job.  Just as we need the Brits, Aussies, Canadians, Dutch, Indians and all other armies to do that job. 

It is possible to argue about where and when and how and under whose authority such troops should be deployed.  But that capability must be held by the international community.  "We can't.  We don't want to." can't be allowed to stand as an answer.

The fact that the US Army then has had to learn on the job and adapt in place has resulted in mis-steps but the shift in that Army was necessary.  Iraq was as good a place as any for it to make the adjustment.  It could have been any of a number of other countries. 

I have heard the argument "Why pick on Saddam?  There are plenty of other targets out there."  The answer is the same in any target-rich environment.  You have to start somewhere.

He was victimising his own people, was a proven threat to the neighbourhood, had some nasty friends with vicious tendencies, was looking for opportunities to make a big splash on the international scene by buying up some nasty technologies and failed to honour his commitments - all these seem perfectly rational reasons for acting on him first.  It was his misfortune that, if he truly had no WMDs and didn't ship them back to his suppliers via Syria, he lied so many times that nobody believed him when he said he didn't have them.  NOBODY believed him.  Not the Yanks, Brits, French, Germans, Russians, Chinese, Canadians or the UN.  They disagreed on what to do next but nobody believed him.

The fact that Iraq sits smack-dab in the middle of the lines of communications connecting Pakistan and Afghanistan to Algeria and Morocco, not to mention Turkey and the Caucasus also made it a critical target that needed to be in the hands of a benign, if not friendly, government.

The role that Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan play currently is more akin to the role that Port Royal, Jamaica; Chesapeake in the Carolinas; and New Orleans played in the 17th and 18th centuries. They were havens for pirates and smugglers that occasionally operated under a commission from any government that would by their services during times of tension.  Not everybody operating for the Islamists is operating out of religious conviction.

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Is the possibility of Canadian soldiers being killed in Afghanistan worth the cost of bringing stability to a region of the world that has been embroiled in warfare for decades?
 
 
Yes   7182 votes     (47 %)
 
No   7958 votes     (53 %)
 
 
Total Votes: 15140
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Offline The Gues-|-

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Is the possibility of Canadian soldiers being killed in Afghanistan worth the cost of bringing stability to a region of the world that has been embroiled in warfare for decades?
 

The way the question is structured implies that the chances of bringing stability to Afghanistan is very slim.  At least that is how I perceive it.  Why not, "With the possibility of Canadian lives being lost in Afghanistan, do you think it's worth bringing stability to a war-torn country?"

We hesitate to use the word "kill" whenever we are referring to "kicking the enemy", but it doesn't slow us down when referring to our own lives being lost in doing something that goes beyond self interest.  Get off the god damn high horse!
We aint making goddamn cornflakes here!

Offline Thirstyson

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I don't think the wording is that bad. I still read it as Afghanistan being a country in need of help, the poll question itself implies that it would be somewhat difficult to do.

Offline vanislerev

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they had a pole almost identical to that on global national too... last i checked it was like 67 percent in opposition or something. but with any public pole, the way you word it will completely change the outcome