Author Topic: CS and batons for private security? (Read 9241 times)

Argh to the Zee · « **on:** July 10, 2006, 20:40:36 »

Not sure if this is the right form, but it seems to be the best one.

Talking with some co-workers at work (I work security at large events in Toronto...for example, I was at Slayer, in the mosh pit) we think it would be nice to be allowed to carry CS spray and batons, at least batons. We get into fights on a nightly basis, often with drunk/drugged persons who are being quite violent. And we are expected to handle it with screaming and open hand maneuvers. Would it really be so bad if private security could carry ASP batons or CS spray? I'm sure a few hippies would oppose it, until they are reminded its us protecting their 14 year old daughter from 28 year old "meat" who just smoked a crystal.

*sigh* this was more of a rant then anything, but I figure if any forum would understand, it would be this one.

Bruce Monkhouse · « **Reply #1 on:** July 10, 2006, 20:44:07 »

One of the problems is that that would put the insurance premiums and the liability issues outside the reach of most promoters.....

George Wallace · « **Reply #2 on:** July 10, 2006, 20:45:43 »

Are you registered as a LEO? NO. Then those would be construed as WEAPONS.

Why in the world would you want to use CS in the first place? Are you totally nuts? Pepper Spray is what the Police use.

techie · « **Reply #3 on:** July 10, 2006, 20:46:00 »

and what going to stop a group of 5 guys jumping the security gaurd, and taking the spray/baton.

Bruce Monkhouse · « **Reply #4 on:** July 10, 2006, 20:49:36 »

Which is why we don't carry them even in Ontario prisons....except when its team time.

Argh to the Zee · « **Reply #5 on:** July 10, 2006, 21:02:24 »

The reason I want something, maybe not CS (just an ASP would be fine) is because when you have some big guy who's all drugged up and being totally unreasonable (i.e. you decide to disengage and just let him do whatever he was doing) and he wont back off, well, empty hand doesn't leave you with a lot of options/ability to defend your self. CS is a bit heavy I'l admit, but something more then fists, but not lethal(like an ASP baton) would be nice.

George Wallace · « **Reply #6 on:** July 10, 2006, 21:07:02 »

In the scenario that you are painting, cops have filled guys like that with lead, and they still kept coming. Not much you could do with an ASP or can of Raid.

Argh to the Zee · « **Reply #7 on:** July 10, 2006, 21:10:20 »

Actaully that is a good point. And having looked into it further, it seems from the new PSIA act in Ontario, that Private security will be allowed to carry batons when it comes into effect (and it will make training mandatory to work as a guard, and require extra endorsements via training to carry a baton ect) But taht is a good point, against the insane crank heads, it probably wont help much anyways.

medicineman · « **Reply #8 on:** July 10, 2006, 21:14:38 »

I think you want OC spray as opposed to CS don't you (pepper spray vs tear gas)? Since they aren't always the greatest against druggies or drunks, hey why not just ask for tasers? Better yet, go a step up to bean bag rounds from a 12 gauge? Or one of these

?

MM

Argh to the Zee · « **Reply #9 on:** July 10, 2006, 21:29:38 »

A bean bag gun would be fun.

"Whats that, your not going to leave?" *WHOOOP* LOL I think the new act should brings things up to a resonable level.

new_FCS_tech · « **Reply #10 on:** July 10, 2006, 21:40:20 »

I know personally with the security company i work for we are trained / licenced to carry OC spray, baton, handcuffs. We had to go through cerification and testing for all of them, and are issued based on the location you'll be working at. For example at a low risk site we may just use open hand techniques and de-escalation as much as possible, to a high risk site using handcuffs, baton, and OC spray while wearing Level 3a vests.

There is an incredible amount of liability involved if you are not licenced, and most of the training we received always came back to the point of what is court defensible, and what is not. Even though we are licenced to carry, especially the baton, if we are pulled over by the police we are guaranteed to have some very serious explaining to do, and generally will actually contact the local police force and advise them of any equipment we may be transporting. My understanding of it was that if you are caught carrying it, even in a standard carrier it can still be easily considered carrying a deadly weapon.

I have personally had to use my baton in a few situations, but it is always an absolute last resort, where all else has failed, i have hopefully been able to contact the local police and help is on the way. The few times i did use it, there was a great deal of explaining that had to be done in court, as a single strike, properly applied will generally break bone. It may be a cool piece of kit to have initially, but like anything, must be treated with a great deal of respect.

techie · « **Reply #11 on:** July 10, 2006, 21:44:02 »

I personally would prefer tasers... i love Tasers sooooooooooooooooo much. I love watching people getting taserd. As for it being in the hands of security, i think, as new-sig-op just said, it should only be carried where there is high risk(not a mall security guard), and have extensive training with a liscence to carry.

Argh to the Zee · « **Reply #12 on:** July 10, 2006, 22:40:00 »

Sig_op your company seems to have it will together, and has the type of solution I was thinking of. I didn't even know it was available! I agree, not for low risk situations. I was thinking housing projects (which Ive pulled a few shifts in) certain placements at events (i.e. the pit at a metal show, and possibly the door, where guards have been assaulted when turning people away for trying to take drugs or weapons into the event) and of course with good training and licensing.

Its just the two times that I've been assaulted by big, mean guys, who don't back off, and had to deal with it empty hand that makes me want something on my side(whew for a radio and my coworkers). (Mind, I do carry a 3C Magg-lite, but that would be very hard to explain using, but I suppose if it comes down to it, its there and can break a bone...but I dont carry it for a weapon, I carry it as I often do hours of bag searching and need a light with long life, which the multi large cell seems to provide)

new_FCS_tech · « **Reply #13 on:** July 10, 2006, 22:50:30 »

i have to admit, I do work for an excellent company. If we do need to use force, and it is justified our bosses will go to the limits to back us up. The few times i had to use my baton it was when i was faced with numerous, very intoxicated individuals with improvised weapons, who would not respond to anything but a good smack. Mind you i had been on my radio at that point requesting any available backup, as well as the local police force.

In a dire situation a maglite can be used to defend yourself, and i have to admit, i have seen it stand up in court, though i would not recommend it. I prefer to bring the local police in when i can, as well, lets face it, for what we get paid its nowhere near the risk. The way we had been trained is it any intermediary weapons (OC spray, baton) should be a last resort, but if needed, to use as much as needed. I would rather, and have had to explain in court why i emptied an entire can of OC spray in someones face, but i would rather stand before a crown then have a pastor stand over my grave.

If i remember correctly, section 25 of the criminal code outlines the justifiable use of force, as well as your protection under the law to use it. With the proper training they can all be used as effective tools, especially de-escalation. Seeing a baton in the hands of someone who at the very least looks like they know how to use it is generally more then enough to make people back down.

Argh to the Zee · « **Reply #14 on:** July 10, 2006, 22:58:36 »

I know 494 allows the use of any reasonable force to effect an arrest by a private citizen provided said citizen sees an indictable offense taking place (like assaulting a security guard would be) so you could use the force and arrest the person assaulting you. But still, its a narrow line to walk between resonable force and assault... But like you said, Its better to stand before a crown then a priest over your grave.

Frog Fred friend fight foo fie fum · « **Reply #15 on:** July 10, 2006, 23:01:53 »

I would think it would be a good idea if they where properley trained.

Argh to the Zee · « **Reply #16 on:** July 10, 2006, 23:07:10 »

To correct my post about arrest and use of force.

You where Sig_op it is section 25 that gives use of force, and sec 494 that gives private arrest powers.

Section 494

Arrest without warrant by any person
494. (1) Any one may arrest without warrant

(a) a person whom he finds committing an indictable offence; or

(b) a person who, on reasonable grounds, he believes

(i) has committed a criminal offence, and

(ii) is escaping from and freshly pursued by persons who have lawful authority to arrest that person.

Arrest by owner, etc., of property
(2) Any one who is

(a) the owner or a person in lawful possession of property, or

(b) a person authorized by the owner or by a person in lawful possession of property,

may arrest without warrant a person whom he finds committing a criminal offence on or in relation to that property.

Delivery to peace officer
(3) Any one other than a peace officer who arrests a person without warrant shall forthwith deliver the person to a peace officer.

Section 25

Protection of persons acting under authority
25. (1) Every one who is required or authorized by law to do anything in the administration or enforcement of the law

(a) as a private person,

(b) as a peace officer or public officer,

(c) in aid of a peace officer or public officer, or

(d) by virtue of his office,

is, if he acts on reasonable grounds, justified in doing what he is required or authorized to do and in using as much force as is necessary for that purpose.

sec 494 provides the authorization to engage in the enforcement of the law that sec 25 requires.

new_FCS_tech · « **Reply #17 on:** July 10, 2006, 23:12:55 »

It definetly is a very fine line, and i have been accused of crossing it in court. As long as you can prove that you used the least amount of force needed to control the subject, then you should be fine. You will always have defense lawyers who will try to discredit you. Personally i was accused of assault for shattering someones wrist with a baton, but it was upheld as his wrist was broken to force him to let go of the pair of scissors he had stabbed me in the vest with several times.

PIKER · « **Reply #18 on:** July 11, 2006, 16:54:23 »

I would rather like to see the emphasis be put on Private Security to become good witnesses. Are there instances where they could use this equipment? sure. But a cellphone or comms to call 911 is just as effective. The security field is largely unregulated and are not held to a standard that would warrant the use of those options. UofF options comes with a boat load of responsibility.

If a situation escalates to where you need to use that equipment it is probably a matter that the police should be involved in anyhow.

Also you as security have to weigh the importance of the situation. If it is a property related offence it is probably not worth sacrificing yourself. Standback, be a good witness and gather the facts for a good conviction.

Argh to the Zee · « **Reply #19 on:** July 11, 2006, 18:43:39 »

Quote from: PIKER on July 11, 2006, 16:54:23

I would rather like to see the emphasis be put on Private Security to become good witnesses. Are there instances where they could use this equipment? sure. But a cellphone or comms to call 911 is just as effective. The security field is largely unregulated and are not held to a standard that would warrant the use of those options. UofF options comes with a boat load of responsibility.

If a situation escalates to where you need to use that equipment it is probably a matter that the police should be involved in anyhow.

Also you as security have to weigh the importance of the situation. If it is a property related offence it is probably not worth sacrificing yourself. Standback, be a good witness and gather the facts for a good conviction.

How about assualt and human safety related? How about the 3-4 minutes between grabbing your cellphone will being punched and kicked and the police arriving?

Hatchet Man · « **Reply #20 on:** July 12, 2006, 07:23:04 »

new_sig_op, I would very much like to know the company you are working for considering that carrying/using OC Spray is ILLEGAL by anyone other than PEACE OFFICERS (And even that depends on the agency particularly Special Constable services.). Either you are blowing smoke up our asses, or your company and yourself are breaking the law.

http://www.mpss.jus.gov.on.ca/english/police_serv/PISG/guidelines/pisg_typical_conditions.html

Quote

Repellant Spray
A security guard may normally only carry a repellant spray when deployed with a guard dog. If any time a security guard is found in possession of a repellant spray of any kind and not engaged in canine duties, they and the employing agency may be subject to prosecution for possession of a prohibited weapon and may have their licence suspended or revoked. This includes oleoresin capsicum spray or foam, pepper spray of any kind, mace or bear/animal spray.

The regulations to the Criminal Code provides the following definition for a prohibited weapon as it pertains to a repellant spray:

Any device designed to be used for the purpose of injuring, immobilizing or otherwise incapacitating any person by the discharge therefrom of
(a) Tear gas, Mace or other gas: or
(b) Any liquid, spray, powder or other substance that is capable of injuring, immobilizing or otherwise incapacitating any person.'

Section 91 (2) of the Criminal Code lists the offence and penalty for possession of a prohibited weapon. Exemptions to the legislation are also identified in the Criminal Code. A peace officer is authorized by law to possess a repellent spray while in the line of duty. Security guards do not fall within this exemption.

Argh to the Zee · « **Reply #21 on:** July 12, 2006, 11:56:28 »

Quote from: Hatchet Man on July 12, 2006, 07:23:04

new_sig_op, I would very much like to know the company you are working for considering that carrying/using OC Spray is ILLEGAL by anyone other than PEACE OFFICERS (And even that depends on the agency particularly Special Constable services.). Either you are blowing smoke up our asses, or your company and yourself are breaking the law.

http://www.mpss.jus.gov.on.ca/english/police_serv/PISG/guidelines/pisg_typical_conditions.html

Or, maybe, just maybe, he is a K9 unit? There are good nuber of K9 security companies.

Kal · « **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2006, 13:37:26 »

Quote from: rz350 on July 10, 2006, 21:10:20

Actaully that is a good point. And having looked into it further, it seems from the new PSIA act in Ontario, that Private security will be allowed to carry batons when it comes into effect (and it will make training mandatory to work as a guard, and require extra endorsements via training to carry a baton ect) But taht is a good point, against the insane crank heads, it probably wont help much anyways.

When is this due to pass and come into effect?

Argh to the Zee · « **Reply #23 on:** July 12, 2006, 14:09:53 »

It passed a while ago, but its date of effect is a proclamation from the Lt.gov, so no one knows for sure, but rumors are at the end of this year or beginning of next, from what I hear from managers and such at my company.

Hatchet Man · « **Reply #24 on:** July 12, 2006, 18:36:30 »

Quote from: rz350 on July 12, 2006, 11:56:28

Or, maybe, just maybe, he is a K9 unit? There are good nuber of K9 security companies.

1) He never said anything about K9
2) It is not automatic that because a company uses K9 that they will automatically be permitted to carry OC Spray, the company I used to work for (Intelligarde) used K9 extensively but they were not permitted OC Spray. It is a condition of the business licence.
3) If permitted you can ONLY carry the spary WHEN you have the K9 with you. No dog no spray.

News:

Author Topic: CS and batons for private security? (Read 9241 times)