Topic: CS and batons for private security?

[Dox]

I would assume the inmates are slightly less likely to attack you then someone I'm trying to arrest as well I assume you are not all alone with no hope of immediate assistance as I am. Being that they are both very different situations We will not agree on this you are looking at it from your situation I'm looking at it from mine . How do you feel about when Corrections Canada was saying that CO's shouldn't get to wear Stab vests because it would cause a Hostile environment and upset the inmates? Seems to me that a great many Co's spent alot of time fighting for the right to use a item that may potentially save their life one day. I doubt very much many people went around essentially telling them they are stupid for wanting a better way to protect themselves.

[zipperhead_cop]

I would assume the inmates are slightly less likely to attack you then someone I'm trying to arrest as well I assume you are not all alone with no hope of immediate assistance as I am. Being that they are both very different situations We will not agree on this you are looking at it from your situation I'm looking at it from mine . How do you feel about when Corrections Canada was saying that CO's shouldn't get to wear Stab vests because it would cause a Hostile environment and upset the inmates? Seems to me that a great many Co's spent alot of time fighting for the right to use a item that may potentially save their life one day. I doubt very much many people went around essentially telling them they are stupid for wanting a better way to protect themselves.

I imagine that at such time a CO gets his vest torn off and gets beaten with it they will lose them. 

[Dox]

I imagine that at such time a CO gets his vest torn off and gets beaten with it they will lose them. 

Most likely But last I heard they still were not allowed to even have them. Because a bunch of people don't want Inmates to feel bad. And by that argument Police should have their guns taken away? There Have be a number of incidents of officers being shot with their own weapons.

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Even with a vest as soon as a sharp-edged weapon appears [unless of course there is danger to the public] than NOTHING else matters but mine and my co-workers escape route.......

[Dox]

Even with a vest as soon as a sharp-edged weapon appears [unless of course there is danger to the public] than NOTHING else matters but mine and my co-workers escape route.......

And when your escape route is blocked?

[Screw]

And when your escape route is blocked?

Then you need to plan better. Why would you get stuck in a corner? Sounds like you stroll around without a care in the world and you want a baton because you dont plan properly.

Your inability to articulate your ideas leads me to believe you shouldnt be armed with anything other then a cell phone. Those who carry, must convey. If you want to be a cop or a CO become a cop or a CO. Dont just try and look like one so somebody pulls your card.

Screw

[Dox]

Thanks But I'm actually a Trained and Licensed Private Investgator, And when you walk out a exit Door after a suspect that you are suppose to be arresting ( a requirement of the law they must exit the store to prove intent) And you suddenly find yourself confronted by his 4 Friends and your backed against a Door Or worse Jumped from behind The world doesn't always go according to any well thought out plan. As for your slam about wanting to be a police officer or CO I never said I want ed to be either one I was drawing a comparison between situations. Plus the condescending attitude that most of the people here seem to have regarding private security and LPO's leads me to believe that many of the members here Have a low opinion of people that do those jobs. I'm good at my job and I take pride in what I do, however I am expected to effect arrests upon people carrying weapons, many with lengthily criminal records that will get no more than a slap on the wrist for assaulting me in the process, People that I have seen fight with the police while in handcuffs. And I'm suppose to do that with nothing more than a smile, yet I suggest That a properly trained person in my position should be allowed to carry a baton and I am attacked as some sort of a idiot who has no idea what I'm talking about or doing. As for my inability to articulate my ideas exactly which ones are you having a hard time understanding? I feel a properly trained person should be allowed to carry a baton, As many Co's felt that they should be allowed to wear sharps vest despite what other people thought and the fact that a LPO or Private Security guard could have a baton taken from them and used against them has not stopped the police from continuing to issue Handguns to officers Which have in the past been taken away and tragical used against the officers themselves. I thought I had made that all fairly clear.To top it off if I may ask How Long you have work as a LPO Screw? Because If you have never worked as one I wouldn't expect you to understand the situations that we can find ourselves in that no amount of planning can ready you for. I'm sure my sister who has now been of work for a month because a suspect broke her arm only to be released from custody the next day and one of my co-workers that suffered multiple Broken bones after being jumped while doing everything exactly the way he was required to do it thought that they had planned everything out as best they could.

[paracowboy]

dox,

for the love of all that is holy, just stop posting! You're arguing with a cop, two prison guards, and a couple of security types, and making yourself appear very foolish. Just stop. Its' sad to watch.

[Michael O'Leary]

I'm sure my sister who has now been of work for a month because a suspect broke her arm only to be released from custody the next day and one of my co-workers that suffered multiple Broken bones after being jumped while doing everything exactly the way he was required to do it thought that they had planned everything out as best they could.

Would having a baton prevented either of these incidents?  Or just given the assailants something else to beat your sister and co-worker with?

The people you seem to be arguing with are just looking for clear context and justification.

[the 48th regulator]

Thanks But I'm actually a Trained and Licensed Private Investgator

You see!!

I knew thre was going to be the old 'AHAA I AM . . . ." totally reminicent of Scooby Doo...

dileas

tess

[Dox]

Actually I was stating my opinion not arguing but that's fine I see that if one doesn't follow the crowd here they are immediately some kind of fool. Please delete my Profile Thanks. and good luck .

[paracowboy]

okay.

[Hatchet Man]

Dox, what makes you think a baton is going to help you when the perp doesn't react to pain, or worse when there are multiple attackers or armed themselves?  You can't be properly trained to use a baton properly or effectively unless you have had YEARS of training.  Anything less than that will be useless, and you will find yourself getting your butt kicked and most likely disarmed.  How do I know, cause it happened to me, it was the scariest experience I have ever had in my life, and I learned the hard way not to put to much faith in a baton.  I have gone over the situation in my head numerous times, and I have come to the conclusion, I was screwed from the get go.  But I learned from then on to pick and choose my battles, and when appropriate disenage and get back up. I have never worked as an LPO, but I know several people who do, each of them knows that going after certain people in certain areas of Toronto by themselves (read between the lines) is just not worth it due to the risks involved in attempting to apprehend a person who is very likely armed/has buddies outside over less than $100 worth of stolen merchendise.

Dang posted to late.

[the 48th regulator]

Brother,

He is gone, as per his request...

dileas

tess

[Hatchet Man]

Brother,

He is gone, as per his request...

dileas

tess

Yeah, happened while I was typing my reply. But I will leave my post for others with his mindset.

[Argh to the Zee]

If your working plainclothes LPO doing arrests with no back up, please please please find a new employer. When ever I end up on LPO (in uniform mind you) we always swarm in at least 4 people to perform arrests. With radio security desk, who can call police, and more LPO/SO.

For the love of all things holy, do not arrest alone!

That being said. I would support batons for private LPO/SO with gov't mandated training. Then again, I would really love a regulation saying that SO and LPO have to work in teams, but that would cost too much and sink the sector.

[Hatchet Man]

That being said. I would support batons for private LPO/SO with gov't mandated training. Then again, I would really love a regulation saying that SO and LPO have to work in teams, but that would cost too much and sink the sector.

Government training is mandated for contract security who carry batons now (the new regs will cover inhouse/bouncers), in Ontario.  The problem is in order for a person to be truly effective with a baton, you need to spend years training with it. A two day/one week/two week etc course isn't going to cut it.  Now I am not saying security should not have one, in some places it is definetly recommened.  But from personal experience some people become overly reliant on a baton, to their detriment (they either used it and it didn't work, which is what happened to me and others I know, or they used it when it wasn't appropriate and found themselves looking at assualt charges).  As it stands I don't think there is one easy solution.

[Argh to the Zee]

I would say ongoing training. Maybe 3-4 day course, then a refresher/additional training once a month?

Relying any one tool is a bad idea. One should always be ready, from making sure you have an escape route, to verbal commands, to hand to hand fighting, to batons, etc. You should know how to use every tool, and not depend on any one, but see each as option for a situation.

[zipperhead_cop]

Well, hopefully Dox decided to lurk here and still pick up some info.  If you do read this, understand that the LEO's that you were taking umbrage with were not being condescending, we were looking out for your well being.  Nobody should be eager to have a weapon in order to be able to get into harrier situations and think they will extricate themselves.  Where drugs are concerned, if the bad guy doesn't feel pain, then it doesn't matter if you have your metal stick or hot sauce. 
As far as getting jumped outside of a store, that is just nuts.  If you are alone and you say to a guy "you are under arrest for..." and the guy does anything other than say "Jolly good, right-o.  It's off to the office, then?"  let him go.  WE DON'T DO ARRESTS ALONE IF WE CAN HELP IT!!  EVER!! You always go with the plus one rule:  whatever you know or see, assume there is one more.  One bad guy to arrest?  Where is his buddy? 
As for Dox's comments on not being able to arrest until they leave the store, that is wrong.  That may be a policy, but if you depackage an item and conceal it on your person, you are already committing the offence.  It sews it up nicely to pin them outside, but it isn't required. 
I don't know why anyone thinks it takes a heap of training with the baton.  It is pretty basic to use.  Raise arm, strike target.  Repeat as needed.  Of course there is more to it than that, but you get the idea.  If you are going to spend years of training at something, take Aikido or Ju Jitsu.  Then you probably won't use the baton except for helping people push the door unlock button in their car when the window is down a crack (my most frequent deployment). 
"Delete my profile"  Who was that supposed to hurt?   

[Hatchet Man]

I don't know why anyone thinks it takes a heap of training with the baton.  It is pretty basic to use.  Raise arm, strike target.  Repeat as needed.

This came from the person who trained myself and pretty much everyone else at the company I worked for.  His credentials spoke for themselves,  40 odd years of Judo, 20 something years on TPS (Retired as a S/Sgt I believe), DT instructor at OPC and C.O. Bick.  Basically he tried showing us other methods of employing a baton aside from just using it as a bludgeoning instrument, because just hitting someone doesnt always work.  And that if we took that extra step to do additional training, it could be a much more effective tool. He wasn't particularly fond of the way most officers were trained to use batons [flick and strike] (he even said that he did not like ASPs too much, and preferred the straight stick). Now I am not putting his name here (cause I can't spell it), but he is a Dutch guy, which should make it fairly easy to figure out who I am talking about.

[Screw]

Well, hopefully Dox decided to lurk here and still pick up some info.  If you do read this, understand that the LEO's that you were taking umbrage with were not being condescending, we were looking out for your well being.  Nobody should be eager to have a weapon in order to be able to get into harrier situations and think they will extricate themselves.  Where drugs are concerned, if the bad guy doesn't feel pain, then it doesn't matter if you have your metal stick or hot sauce. 
As far as getting jumped outside of a store, that is just nuts.  If you are alone and you say to a guy "you are under arrest for..." and the guy does anything other than say "Jolly good, right-o.  It's off to the office, then?"  let him go.  WE DON'T DO ARRESTS ALONE IF WE CAN HELP IT!!  EVER!! You always go with the plus one rule:  whatever you know or see, assume there is one more.  One bad guy to arrest?  Where is his buddy? 
As for Dox's comments on not being able to arrest until they leave the store, that is wrong.  That may be a policy, but if you depackage an item and conceal it on your person, you are already committing the offence.  It sews it up nicely to pin them outside, but it isn't required. 
I don't know why anyone thinks it takes a heap of training with the baton.  It is pretty basic to use.  Raise arm, strike target.  Repeat as needed.  Of course there is more to it than that, but you get the idea.  If you are going to spend years of training at something, take Aikido or Ju Jitsu.  Then you probably won't use the baton except for helping people push the door unlock button in their car when the window is down a crack (my most frequent deployment). 
"Delete my profile"  Who was that supposed to hurt?   

Thats good stuff Zip. Its important to lose the "if I dont arrest now- i'll lose face attitude." Part of the reason we win is because we have the luxery of planning. This may seem crazy but it seems like the security industry, in most cases,IMHO feel that we in the law enforcement community would think less of them if they played safe. When in reality its the exact opposite.

Screw

[portcullisguy]

This came from the person who trained myself and pretty much everyone else at the company I worked for.  His credentials spoke for themselves,  40 odd years of Judo, 20 something years on TPS (Retired as a S/Sgt I believe), DT instructor at OPC and C.O. Bick.  Basically he tried showing us other methods of employing a baton aside from just using it as a bludgeoning instrument, because just hitting someone doesnt always work.  And that if we took that extra step to do additional training, it could be a much more effective tool. He wasn't particularly fond of the way most officers were trained to use batons [flick and strike] (he even said that he did not like ASPs too much, and preferred the straight stick). Now I am not putting his name here (cause I can't spell it), but he is a Dutch guy, which should make it fairly easy to figure out who I am talking about.

He retired but not sure he made Staff Sgt when he did.  But yes, I can confirm all that.  Ol' Jan knew his stuff, and he is one guy I would never wanna mess with.

Baton training was 2 days at the time I did it, and we used straight sticks.  For kicks, one lunch break we did some sparring with the boxing gloves.  He was tapping my nose repeatedly, just to let me know he coulda drove through me any time he wanted.  Way too fast for me.  And I was 22 at the time.

He very nearly got into a bit of hot water one day when a student challenged his theory on defending against a knife (for the record, he said to forget about getting involved with anyone with a knife, if you are working security).  Well one recruit, who thought he knew a thing or two about knife defense, explains to the good Sgt that he doesn't know what he's talking about, blah blah, he can defend against a knife cuz someone showe dhim how, blah blah.... Well a demonstration ensued.  With a real knife.  It slipped and cut the kid on the forearm, and he bled like a stuck pig.  Now, I don't remember who was showing who what, but the kid quit the company the next day (after a trip to the hospital).

[Hatchet Man]

He retired but not sure he made Staff Sgt when he did.  But yes, I can confirm all that.  Ol' Jan knew his stuff, and he is one guy I would never wanna mess with.

Baton training was 2 days at the time I did it, and we used straight sticks.  For kicks, one lunch break we did some sparring with the boxing gloves.  He was tapping my nose repeatedly, just to let me know he coulda drove through me any time he wanted.  Way too fast for me.  And I was 22 at the time.

He very nearly got into a bit of hot water one day when a student challenged his theory on defending against a knife (for the record, he said to forget about getting involved with anyone with a knife, if you are working security).  Well one recruit, who thought he knew a thing or two about knife defense, explains to the good Sgt that he doesn't know what he's talking about, blah blah, he can defend against a knife cuz someone showe dhim how, blah blah.... Well a demonstration ensued.  With a real knife.  It slipped and cut the kid on the forearm, and he bled like a stuck pig.  Now, I don't remember who was showing who what, but the kid quit the company the next day (after a trip to the hospital).

Baton Training was a rather unpleasant two day for me as well.  And I remember that story, cept it wasn't a new employee it was the bodyguard of a high profile (read mobster) Russain hiding out in T.O., the company got the contract to do security at the place, and the high profile guy wanted his bodyguards to learn about how to do things legally in Canada.  The bodyguard was ex-army and bragged about his knife training (not realizing you never ever brag about your "training" in front of Jan, cause he will make you put your money were your mouth is), and when Jan pulled out the rubber training knives, dude said nope, he would only use real knives. So Jan obliged him, and the knife didn't so much as "slip" as Jan just didn't want to "really" hurt the guy, only teach him a lesson.  This is the version I got from Jan himself, in anycase the guy could be in walker and I would still keep my distance from him.

[portcullisguy]

Sounds like Jan embellished a bit for the later generations, but yes basically that is the gist of it.  The kid was new to I-garde.

The Russian thing was a whole other story that happened before I got there, and allegedly involved Igarde guys tooled up with gats brought in via diplomatic packages to a wealthy ex-KGB living in the Bridle Path area.  But such is the stuff of lore & legend, and completely unreliable and unconfirmable.

Ah, the good ol' days.