Topic: Confusion on CCG protocol

[S.M.A.]

On looking through wikipedia, I was confused by the Canadian Coast Guard's designation as "non-military". But I am wondering just to what extent they are non-military?

They wear uniforms and have ranks. They have a Coast Guard Academy with cadets who drill.(look up the pics on the 25th Anniversary pics of the CCGA on Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary website)

On the thread about "whether the Canadian Coast Guard should be Armed?", someone compared the CCG to a bunch of merchant sailors.

So, in any situation where Coast Guard personnel work with Navy/Marcom personnel, do CCG crewmen (who are technically civilians) have to salute Marcom officers? Such as when an icebreaker is tied up alongside one of the Kingston class ships.

How about in a formal situation where both CCG officers and Marcom officers are present? Would Marcom officers have to salute the CCG commissioner or any other CCG's ships officers?

Forgive me for my ignorance.


For example why is this rank called "Vice-President" instead of Commander:

[Technoviking]

The police are armed, do drill, wear uniforms and have rank but they are not military.

[niner domestic]

A fairly concise history of the CCG can be found at:

http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/usque-ad-mare/main_e.htm

It does have a chapter on its formation and reporting capacity/protocol.

[S.M.A.]

Well, the police (whether RCMP or local police force like Vancouver's VPD) are pretty much a given when it comes to "military" protocol on some levels.

As for the CCG being armed, the subject of a past thread, so far I can only find one ship listed on the CCG fleet that is armed and it's on the East Coast. It's the Fisheries patrol vessel CCGS Leonard Cowley I think.

So in essence, you say they are a civilian agency like the police forces simply because they also wear uniforms, have some arms and do drill in certain occasions. However, I was simply asking about the general day-to-day protocol of CCG officers and crew like the above situations I said.

I don't suppose CCG crewmen/coxswains on a CCG post are suppose to salute every CCG Officer/Deputy Unit leader they see as any Bosun's mate would salute any Marcom officer outdoors.

Personally, I think that the CCG should redesignated as "paramilitary" not only because some of them are armed, but because it is such a large uniformed force, (Marcom  has more personnel, but the CCG has more ships) and conducts business more like a navy than a fleet of merchant ships transporting goods for one particular shipping line. I am sorry if this might ignite a firestorm of comments back for using that word; I don't want to be a troll!

[Haggis]

As for the CCG being armed, the subject of a past thread, so far I can only find one ship listed on the CCG fleet that is armed and it's on the East Coast. It's the Fisheries patrol vessel CCGS Leonard Cowley I think.

The Canadian Coast Guard is part of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.   Fisheries officers are peace officers and, therefore, are armed.  So it would stand to reason that a Coast Guard vessel assigned specifically to fisheries patrol would also be armed.  Coast Guard officers are not peace officers, per se, but they are empowered to enforce certain regulations regarding boating, shipping and martime safety.

[Colin P]

When DFO and CCG were fused together, the CCG acquired some of their vessels. I would be surprised if they were armed. Each vessel had one rifle aboard, ours was a .303 still wrapped in grease paper and cosomline under the captains bunk. The icebreakers have a couple of hunting rifles to arm shore parties against Polarbears. Plus fishcops carry a S&W DAO pistol (5926?)

The CCG was never an armed service and was previously called the Marine Navigation Service if I recall correctly. In 1964 they took over Marine SAR duties from the RCAF, previously only operating a few lifeboats and rest of the ships primarily doing icebreaking and buoy tending.

The Fisheries service used to be armed with MG's and some vessels were equipped with 40mm bofors, when they were taken off I am not sure, but fisheries used to use MG's to kill Orca's and seals (times have changed eh!)

The commissioner of the CCG was strongly against arming the CCG and most of the ship crews would not want to become a armed service. The Fleet falls under DFO and the crews are unionized. Arming the guard may happen under a majority CPC government, but not a Liberal one.

[N. McKay]

On looking through wikipedia, I was confused by the Canadian Coast Guard's designation as "non-military". But I am wondering just to what extent they are non-military?

They wear uniforms and have ranks. They have a Coast Guard Academy with cadets who drill.(look up the pics on the 25th Anniversary pics of the CCGA on Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary website)

BC Ferries, Marine Atlantic, and all sorts of other civilian mariners wear uniforms as well, but are not at all military.  The term "cadet" is used throughout the merchant marine for a student officer.

There is a small drill component in the Coast Guard College (not Academy) consisting of enough drill to get the students through a fairly basic parade.  It's  grand total of 12 hours of instruction in the first year.

On the thread about "whether the Canadian Coast Guard should be Armed?", someone compared the CCG to a bunch of merchant sailors.

That was probably me, and I probably said something more like "essentially merchant mariners", because that's what they are.  A Coast Guard officer is certified by Transport Canada just as a merchant marine officer is, and has a similar role.  They also belong the the Canadian Merchant Service guild, a union that represents merchant mariners and civilian mariners working with the federal government (e.g. officers who run the navy's tugs and similar craft).

So, in any situation where Coast Guard personnel work with Navy/Marcom personnel, do CCG crewmen (who are technically civilians) have to salute Marcom officers? Such as when an icebreaker is tied up alongside one of the Kingston class ships.

How about in a formal situation where both CCG officers and Marcom officers are present? Would Marcom officers have to salute the CCG commissioner or any other CCG's ships officers?

I would be very surprised to see any Coast Guard member salute anyone.  Ship's crew members don't take any drill training that I know of.  While officers are trained from the ground up, crew are generally hired through civil service competition from among people with experience at sea.  It's not comparable to the navy, which will take someone off the street and train him to be a sailor.

Coast Guard oficers are not commissioned, so would not be saluted.

For example why is this rank called "Vice-President" instead of Commander:

That would be a Coast Guard Auxiliary member (silver stripes rather than gold).  The Coast Guard Auxiliary is organized into regional corporations.  Its members are volunteers, many of whom operate their own boats as required for search and rescue taskings.

Coast Guard officers' ranks are not named like naval ranks.  Coast Guard officers have a pay classification like most other civil servants, e.g. SO-MAO-3 (Ship's Officer, Marine Operator 3).  The insignia they wear indicates position in the ship (e.g. second officer or chief engineer) more than rank.

[Colin P]

Their insignia is based on the Merchant Marine, three full bars is a Captain of a larger ship, 2 full and centre thin, is the first Mate, etc. Purple between the strips represents the Engineering branch.

I have been on CCG vessels where some of the Seaman hold higher certificates that the Bridge Officers, also a bit of a stink when they wanted to bring a ship from the West coast to the East coast and they found out that the CCG college certificates were not recognized in International waters, something that has been fixed I understand. Drill/saluting is something the seaman would refuse to do and the only salute you would get is the one fingered one!!

funny noticing the difference between the CCG and the USCG at our gatherings, the USCG seems to have an average age of 20-25, where the CCG is more likely 30-40. Many of the CCG seaman come from or have other marine oriented jobs. This was a bit of a problem when we joined DFO as a number of the CCG guys were also fishermen and fishing vessel masters.

[N. McKay]

Their insignia is based on the Merchant Marine, three full bars is a Captain of a larger ship, 2 full and centre thin, is the first Mate, etc. Purple between the strips represents the Engineering branch.

I'm sure I've seen 4-ringers in CCG ships.

I have been on CCG vessels where some of the Seaman hold higher certificates that the Bridge Officers, also a bit of a stink when they wanted to bring a ship from the West coast to the East coast and they found out that the CCG college certificates were not recognized in International waters, something that has been fixed I understand.

CCG officers now have commercial certificates (Watchkeeping Mate Ship on the way out of the College for deck officers).

[Colin P]

I seem to remember that our Regional Director of the Pacific CCG region was wearing 4 stripes, (to bad he didn't earn them!    ) so it is a possibility. I spent most of my time on the smaller ships and on the west coast, so I don't know the details of the bigger breakers on the East Coast.

[STONEY]

Some years ago it was realized that when there were meetings between CCG and the USCG ,as happens a lot, there was no way to tell who the Canadians were. The USCG were all there loaded with ribbons and brass like third world dictators while the CCG were at these meetings in civies so there was no way for the USCG to tell who was in charge or who was his go-for so it was decided to give people uniforms that displayed equivalent rank even though these people didn't actually have any rank.  The commissioner of the CCG wears Vice Admiral uniform, Regional Directors = Rear Admiral, Directors = 4 rings, Superintendants=3 rings and so on down.  So now thay are not completely ignored at international meetings as they were in civies seeing as most world CG's wear uniforms.  CCG ships captains of larger vessels wear 4 rings which are to show that they are the Ships Captain just as almost all merchant ships captains regardless of size of importance of their ships, wear 4 rings.  In the CCG ships captains are of various civil service levels and pay scales usually determined by the size of the ship they are on.
      Most CCG employees do not have uniforms of any sort , of those that do, many refuse to wear them , many others wear them only partially ie wear a uniform shirt with an old pair of jeans and any footwear that suites their mood that day. Saluting is not in their vocabulary & mostly first names are used. When uniforms ,are worn ,they are mostly tied to the position you are working rather than any rank. Hence one could be working at a job that you wear 2 stripes and a week later at a job that only calls for 1 stripe . Remember i didn't say it made any sense.

Cheers

[Colin P]

CCG does issue uniforms,  (I still have about a dozen pairs) blue shirts and dark blue pants which look remarkable like the Customs and Bus drivers, prior to that they wore very,very dark blue or black boiler suits and black jacket and pants. Helicopter, aircraft and hovercraft guys get flight suits.

The number of bars that the captain wears varies, on my R class cutter, my Captains have worn thick/thint/hick (aka Major in the army)

I just left a message with my buddy who runs the CCG Pacific website to see if he can dig up a document that I can post here on the "offical" version.

Before I did the CCG, I did a brief stint at BC Ferries, on my first few trips on the cutters, I had to wear my ferries uniform (also remarkable similar) sans badges, the CCG suppy system for uniforms made the Miltary look uber-efficent. It did get better though. Also keep in mind that only fleet personal, RCC staff, a few others and Boating Safety Officers (now with TC) are to wear uniforms, Shore staff wore civies or supplied coveralls.

[N. McKay]

Boating Safety Officers (now with TC) are to wear uniforms

Do they still?

[Colin P]

Not at the moment to my understanding as they are no longer part of the CCG, but part of TC, hopefully if they bring CCG back to TC, we (boating Safety & Navigable Waters) will be under CCG again. Currenty both sections are part of Marine Safety at TC.

[N. McKay]

hopefully if they bring CCG back to TC

Is some thought being given to doing that?

[Colin P]

Very difficult to say, the marriage between DFO & CCG was via shotgun, with two very grumpy partners. If CCG goes, then DFO will likely lose it's fleet. CCG brought a lot to the DFO fleet and improved training and standards, but a lot of the DFO guys missed the gray fleet days. DFO is one totally screwed up outfit overtime and travel cheques take up to 6 months to arrive (TC is about 2 weeks) Harassment is a problem, morale is a problem (somebody threatened to blow up compensation in Vancouver, can't imagine why  ) Presently CCG is a Special Operating Agency (SOA) sort like a divorced couple living under the same roof, but no sex. At least the CCG budget is not getting raped as much anymore by the DFO senior management!

I don't miss DFO at all, but I do miss wearing the CCG crest.

What the future holds depends on the party in power, Liberal and I doubt things will change. Full CPC might bring CCG back to TC or put it into new department similar to Homeland security.

[S.M.A.]

  The commissioner of the CCG wears Vice Admiral uniform, Regional Directors = Rear Admiral, Directors = 4 rings, Superintendants=3 rings and so on down.  So now thay are not completely ignored at international meetings as they were in civies seeing as most world CG's wear uniforms.  CCG ships captains of larger vessels wear 4 rings which are to show that they are the Ships Captain just as almost all merchant ships captains regardless of size of importance of their ships, wear 4 rings.  In the CCG ships captains are of various civil service levels and pay scales usually determined by the size of the ship they are on.
     

So do you mean to tell me that if the Commissioner and Regional Directors of the CCG meets a USCG Admiral at one of these meetings, he doesn't salute the American even if they're all wearing admiral's uniforms? (how about vice-versa?- Has a USCG officer (say O-6 and below) ever made the mistake (?)  of saluting the CCG Commissioner in uniform?) Just wanting to clarify what may be viewed as a really awkward situation by some.

[Colin P]

As the stripes are not "earned" I doubt they are aware of protocol, a lot of fumbling and unsureness would result. I remember sitting in the can listening to 2 members of my senior management, both wearing uniforms with a "fantasy rank" which was supposed to represent their postion in management. Only one had any time at sea and not for very long and left for wrong reasons at that, the other was well....

Anyways the 2 of them wearing squealing like two kids with new toys and blathering on about how good it looks and how the USCG will respect them now, blah,blah. I flushed and stepped out of the stall, gave them the look and walked out, they both looked like,they had been caught choking their chickens. 

[N. McKay]

Colin, where were you will all these stories when I was asking for advice on joining?

For the OP, it might be helpful to look at the Coast Guard in context with other uniform-wearing people like customs officers, officers and crew in Marine Atlantic or BC Ferries ships, CATSA staff (the federal airport security outfit), and so on.  All wear uniforms with military-style ranks but there isn't the formal protocol around those ranks that there is in the Forces.

The US Coast Guard is a military service, with many parallels to the other US military services.  The Canadian Coast Guard is a partly-uniformed part of the civil service, so there isn't the same framework of protocol and service customs there is in the Forces.

[Colin P]

The CCG is a good career and honourable despite the best efforts of DFO to muck it up.

[S.M.A.]

As the stripes are not "earned" I doubt they are aware of protocol, a lot of fumbling and unsureness would result. I remember sitting in the can listening to 2 members of my senior management, both wearing uniforms with a "fantasy rank" which was supposed to represent their postion in management. Only one had any time at sea and not for very long and left for wrong reasons at that, the other was well....

Anyways the 2 of them wearing squealing like two kids with new toys and blathering on about how good it looks and how the USCG will respect them now, blah,blah. I flushed and stepped out of the stall, gave them the look and walked out, they both looked like,they had been caught choking their chickens. 

Colin,

So how did these two CCG senior managers/directors get to their positions if both of them had little or no sea time? Did they just get an MBA or something? Well, after all it does say on Wikipedia that the CCG is based on a civilian "management model" rather than a military chain of command.

BTW, on another note, does the CCG commissioner and other regional directors have the authority like admirals to tell individual CCG ships on where to sail and where to port of call or they don't have the right to interfere with the Captains of these ships because they're like merchant sailors?

Just needing a little more clarification.

[Colin P]

One did spend some time at sea, but was not suited for the role, he was very bright but not capable of the diverse requirements of being a bridge officer, the other came from another government department as a senior manager with a accountant background I believe.

Senior management can dictate ship routing and generally do it through setting priorities and then leaving the details to the fleet management people. However for foreign ports of call, permission is usually required unless there is an emergency. The Captain can make any decision they want, but may have to justify later, ships are expensive to run and there are work sheduales to meet. Each region normally runs a Regional Operation Centre that divides up taskings to the ship that is nearest/best suited for the task. the minister may request that a ship attend a event and such a request is normally only refused if there is a very good reason not to (SAR zone coverage, breakdowns, etc)

Civilian management model is a polite term for it 

[S.M.A.]

Thanks again for all the responses. I had all these CCG questions because I was seriously considering a career change (won't say my current job) and was considering a 13-week seamanship course/Bridge Watchman course at a local college (British Columbia Institute of Technology) as a start.

[Colin P]

If you are young, it is a good career to start in, do the training, go deep sea when you are young to get your deep sea time so you can write your ON 1 & 2. then join the CCG, so you can have a bit more of a home life and then move into BC Ferries as you get older and have a family and retirement.

Yes being young is a good time to plan towards retirement. Federal Service will give a good pension.

[S.M.A.]

Colin,

Well, I am only 24 years old now. I was seriously considering the CCG because I've always had an interest in naval/maritime affairs. I'm also considering Marcom but the wait "for the call" is too long and I'm not sure if I'd want to be stationed away from British Columbia (I might be sent to Halifax, not Esquimalt).

Still, I'm not so sure if I will be much use on ship without that vocational seamanship course, since my major in college (it's not technical) has nothing to do with the sea or marine engineering. I also considered the Coast Guard Auxiliary and keep my current job, but I'm not sure if the Auxiliary is anything like the real CCG.