Topic: Rations, Meal Claims, No Access to Mess Hall, Etc.--Merged

[X-mo-1979]

Quick question reference meal claims.

Been working 7h00-17h30 for the past week through the weekend and onward for the next little while.
Now the problem lies we have stayed till 19h00 without supper on one occasion and it is also a 30-40 minute bus drive back to base.

The night we stayed till 19h00 meal claims were made out for only living in personnel.Shouldn't everyone get the claim?

As well WHEN does the meal claim kick into action.Pretty well every night we get back on base around 18H15 or so.

Just wondering if someone can give me a strait answer on it/where to find the reference..Just trying to make sure my troops are not getting scammed out of money,and I have zip for time to look into it between working like a dog and trying to spend a hour with my family before I deploy.

Also when does the "clock" stop?At the work place a half hr bus ride away?Or when the bus gets us back to base?

Thank you very much,
Ill check back later

[George Wallace]

I think that what you are seeing is a "reimbursement of funds" for the Living-in pers.  What you 'Living out' guys have to do is submit an M Tech (Meal Claim) through the OR for your meals.  I think it is based on the TD rates for meals, but am not sure.  It is a petty cash account that the OR administers for such incidentals that happen.  You will, of course, have to have receipts in some cases.  You also sign an acquitance roll when you are paid. 

[Roy Harding]

I take it that you weren't fed - a box lunch or whatever.

An MTEC claim (Minor Travel Expense Claim) is meant to reimburse you for funds ACTUALLY spent due to the exigencies of the service.

If you had to work until 1800, then went home and had a late supper - you didn't expend funds beyond what you normally would.  On the OTHER hand, if you ordered pizza or chinese or whatever whilst on duty, you could be reimbursed (granting that a meal - box lunch, mess chit, whatever, wasn't made available to you). 

But in MY world - you'd need a receipt.  MTEC isn't a compensation fund for inconvenience - it's a compensation fund for money actually spent due to the exigencies of the service.

Edit - typo

[X-mo-1979]

Ok guys thanks for the response.

For some reason I thought that after 18h00 who ever was in charge had to summit a meal claim for the group.

No box lunches,haybox,meal chit's,dirty rocks to lick for nutrients were provided.

Every night I came home and ate supper.Most times by the time I got it ready 20h00.

Was there a time during the day when the MTEC come into effect?

Not a fun task by any means.I'm slightly bitter and twisted,however someones gotta do it.

Just looking to put cash in the boys pockets if they were entilted.

Do you guys happen to know where this stuff is written?Provide a link?

cheers.

[George Wallace]

In CFAO 36-21  ACCOUNTING FOR RATION ENTITLEMENT


ANNEX G -- CASUAL MEALS AND REPAYMENT MEALSSECTION 1 -- CASUAL MEALS
1.     For the purposes of Section 1 of this annex, "casual meal" means:
     a.   a meal provided to a living-out member from public rations under
          paragraph 4y of 36-14.

     b.   a meal provided to a living-out member from public rations under
          paragraph 4w of 36-14; or

     c.   a meal provided from public rations to a living-in member as a
          result of ship/shore duty as prescribed in paragraph 4 below.

2.     Except as indicated in paragraph 3 below, a Casual Meal Authorization
form (Appendix 1) shall be prepared to document and approve the entitlement
to a casual meal.  The form shall be prepared in single copy and, after use
by the individual, shall be forwarded daily by the DND food services
facility to the base or unit orderly room for incorporation in the ration
entitlement.

3.     Where a casual meal is provided in respect of a military duty that is
published in Routine Orders (eg, orderly officer), a Casual Meal
Authorization form is not required.

4.     When a person on ration strength proceeds on duty from a ship to a
shore establishment, or to another ship, over a meal period, the executive
officer may approve a casual meal authorization for the meal or meals
taken. Similarly, a living-in person of a shore establishment may be
authorized a casual meal or meals when on duty in a ship over a meal
period.  The ration entitlement of the parent ship or establishment shall
not be adjusted for such casual meals when the period of duty is for 24
hours or less.

=======================================================

ANNEX G, APPENDIX 1 -- CANADIAN FORCES CASUAL MEAL AUTHORIZATION
This image is in the process of being rescannedClick Image To Get Expanded View

INSTRUCTIONS (numbers correspond to circled numbers above)

1.     Insert SN, rank and name of person.  If a group is authorized meals,
insert "as per attached list".

2.     Insert date on which meal(s) is/are to be taken.

3.     Explain briefly the reason for the free casual meal(s).

4.     Insert person's base, unit, section, company, branch, etc.

5.     Signature and rank of authorizing officer.

===================================================

[Roy Harding]

Ok guys thanks for the response.

For some reason I thought that after 18h00 who ever was in charge had to summit a meal claim for the group.

No box lunches,haybox,meal chit's,dirty rocks to lick for nutrients were provided.

Every night I came home and ate supper.Most times by the time I got it ready 20h00.

Was there a time during the day when the MTEC come into effect?

Not a fun task by any means.I'm slightly bitter and twisted,however someones gotta do it.

Just looking to put cash in the boys pockets if they were entilted.

Do you guys happen to know where this stuff is written?Provide a link?

cheers.

Keep in mind that I'm a few years out of date - you'd be better off to speak to your Chief Clerk on this.

From my (outdated) point of view, however - meal reimbursement is exactly that - a reimbursement for funds spent - NOT a payment in lieu, nor a compensation for having missed a meal.  This caused MUCH friction between aircrew and myself when I was CC of an operational (SAR) squadron - and was never settled to my satisfaction.

Talk to your Chief Clerk - find out what the local rules are (in my experience they could vary from place to place, from CO to CO, and from CC to CC).

[harry8422]

hey , X-mo-1979 

I am on the same tasking as yourself and was just about to research the same subject but you beat me to it.

[X-mo-1979]

Thanks George thats what I was lookin for.

Yeah roy it's a tasking outside my chain.And working from 5h30 till dark don't leave much time for me to swing into work to see the clerk.

thanks again.

Harry8422,I'll try and look after ya.

[ArmyVern]

At my last Unit, here's how it went (we often worked weekends etc, expectedly & unexpectedly).

When we needed to work nights expectedly ... I had the Supply guys arrange for food delivery for the supper meal period as that was over & above the "normal" work day. Pers (living out ... are expected to provide their own lunch if not travelling). We bore the costs of providing that meal for the pers working over the CF "supper" hour.

For "unexpected" work over the supper hour, when Sup was not able to arrange for "take out" for everyone, pers who worked were authorized a general allowance claim by me if they were not dismissed from the workplace prior to 1830 hours (which is the "end" of the supper hour) and thus could not eat their supper meal during the CFs official "timings" for it.

MTEC was not applicable as members did not have receipts nor were they travelling, but entitlement was deemed to have existed as work requirements prevented them from obtaining or eating their meal during the CFs recognized timing for that meal, and that their performance of duty to the CF caused that missed timing.

[beach_bum]

Keep in mind that I'm a few years out of date - you'd be better off to speak to your Chief Clerk on this.

From my (outdated) point of view, however - meal reimbursement is exactly that - a reimbursement for funds spent - NOT a payment in lieu, nor a compensation for having missed a meal.  This caused MUCH friction between aircrew and myself when I was CC of an operational (SAR) squadron - and was never settled to my satisfaction.

Talk to your Chief Clerk - find out what the local rules are (in my experience they could vary from place to place, from CO to CO, and from CC to CC).

These are the rules we have.  Pers are only reimbursed money spent out of their own pocket.  If they didn't spend anything (if in the local geographical region a receipt must be provided) they don't get reimbursed.

[Roy Harding]

Thanks George thats what I was lookin for.

Yeah roy it's a tasking outside my chain.And working from 5h30 till dark don't leave much time for me to swing into work to see the clerk.

thanks again.

Harry8422,I'll try and look after ya.

Send an email to him/her (your CC).  That works too.

[Nerf herder]

Been working 7h00-17h30 for the past week through the weekend and onward for the next little while.
Now the problem lies we have stayed till 19h00 without supper on one occasion and it is also a 30-40 minute bus drive back to base.

If you are working over the supper hour well past the 1800 cut off time the organization that is in charge of you should be feeding you and your troops, be it box lunches or haybox meals.

If they aren't, lodge a complaint through the CoC, the work party and at your unit who tasked you, pronto.

It would seem that this is a short sight on their part and is inexcusable IMHO.

My 0.02 Duram worth.

Regards

[ArmyVern]

If you are working over the supper hour well past the 1800 cut off time the organization that is in charge of you should be feeding you and your troops, be it box lunches or haybox meals.

If they aren't, lodge a complaint through the CoC, the work party and at your unit who tasked you, pronto.

It would seem that this is a short sight on their part and is inexcusable IMHO.

My 0.02 Duram worth.

Regards

I agree.

They either feed them via alternate means (box lunch etc), or the member is entitled to claim them.

Being allowed your meals is an entitlement, and when you can not have them within a reasonable time period (as set out for the CF official meal timings) due to performance of military duties -- they are compensatable (and that's exactly why the living-in guys got reimbursed -- because they had missed the meal hour at the Mess).

[Zoomie]

This caused MUCH friction between aircrew and myself when I was CC of an operational (SAR) squadron - and was never settled to my satisfaction.

No more friction here Roy

MTECs without receipt are required for operational crew members when they eat away from the Wing (i.e. Chilliwack for lunch).

When operational crews stay on the Wing over lunch - they all go over together to the Mess Hall and eat to their heart's (and waistlines) content.

If our day shift goes late and we land past 1830hrs - we fill out an MTEC again, but this time we require a receipt and only get reimbursed for the funds expended.  We had a CC a couple of years ago who would vet each itemized receipt and question the member about whether he really ate all the food.   "Did you really eat a whole bucket of chicken?"
Our current SOR staff are more big picture and reimburse up to the maximum allowable (TD lrate).

[FinClk]

5.10   Meals (Within HQ Area)
(1)   Meal expenses incurred within the HQ area shall not normally be reimbursed.  Each unit must provide a lunch break approximately midway through the regular work period or shift to enable each member to obtain a meal at their own expense.
(2)   If the CO considers meal expenses during normal working hours as reasonable and justifiable, a member on TD within the HQ area is entitled to be reimbursed actual out-of-pocket expenses, based on receipts, up to the limit of the applicable meal allowance in Appendix C of the following Treasury Board website, http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TBM_113/td-dv_e.asp, provisions of CFAO 36-14 still apply.  The following are examples of when meal expenses may be reimbursed IAW the meal hours listed at Section 6.10 paras 2 and 3:
a)   when members are required to work through normal meal hours as approved by their supervisor (this primarily refers to lunches, however, breakfast and dinner may apply on rare occasions).  A reasonably delayed meal hour does not create an entitlement to a meal at Crown expense;
b)   when members are required to attend conferences, seminars, training sessions, meetings or public hearings during the weekend or holidays, where meals were not provided by a third party;
c)   when  members are required to attend formal full-day conferences, seminars, training sessions, meetings or hearings, and meals are a required part of the proceedings;
d)   when members are on ration strength but because of an absence on authorized duty  are unable to take a meal at the mess and have not been provided with a box lunch; or
e)   when members are required to work outside the primary work place, and their participation in an intensive task force or committee work is enhanced by keeping members together over a normal meal period.

6.10   Meals (Outside HQ Area)
(1)   A member is entitled to be reimbursed the applicable meal allowance rates set out in Appendix C of the following Treasury Board website, http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TBM_113/td-dv_e.asp, for each breakfast, lunch and dinner while on TD.  A meal allowance shall not be paid to a member with respect to a meal that is provided by a third party or other government agency.  Members shall only claim for those meals that they were not provided.
(2)   A member is entitled to be reimbursed the applicable meal allowance for each breakfast, lunch and dinner provided that:
a)   for breakfast, the member must depart from home on duty travel before 0630 hrs;
b)   for lunch, the member must be on travel status between 1130 hrs and 1300 hrs; and
c)   for dinner, the member must arrive at home after 1800 hrs.
(3)   A member who is on duty between 1900 hours and 0730 hours for four hours or greater is entitled to be reimbursed, with receipts, actual and reasonable expenses not exceeding the amount payable for a lunch, for a single night meal, when the CO considers that the purchase of the meal was necessary to ensure the proper performance of the duty.
(4)   Reimbursement of meals for shift workers shall be based on the meal sequence of breakfast, lunch and dinner in relation to the commencement of the CF member’s shift.

MTEC was not applicable as members did not have receipts nor were they travelling, but entitlement was deemed to have existed as work requirements prevented them from obtaining or eating their meal during the CFs recognized timing for that meal, and that their performance of duty to the CF caused that missed timing.

MTEC is but the claim form used and not the direction or policy authorizing any reimbursement. Rather the TB Travel Directive of which DND/CF have enhanced through CBI's, CFAO's and more to the point the CFTDTI's are the authorities to effect any reimbursement of the sort. The 2 quotes above can apply to pers within this topic as I do not know if they were working outside the HQ Area or not.

As a rule of thumb, anything within the local area (HQ Area) requires receipts and would suspect that Roy can back me up on that. You have been reimbursed, however do not be surprised if it gets picked up during an audit and have to repay the funds (if not recovered from your pay). I have seen this happen time and time again. Regardless of the perceived “entitlement”, without receipts it did not exist as only actual and reasonable expenses incurred can be reimbursed through the use receipts to no greater amount then provided by the Treasury Board.

Not trying to start a debate, nor will I participate in, of what it should or should not be but am rather only advising you of the regulations to this effect.

[ArmyVern]

Edited: PM in.

[Bintheredunthat-Muzzled]

Not wanting to start a new thread as this may be somewhat related.

I always thought that for TD - breakfast if provided (at a hotel) was not to be claimed only if it was a full or hot breakfast.  It goes back to one of those things as having always done it this way.  What I'm trying to understand is why, when I'm given a coffee and a muffin at a hotel, would this meal be considered anything even close to the equivalent to a normal sized meal.

I've taken a look through the CFTDIs but couldn't read much of it for this particular situation.  I've spoken to different members of the Clerk staff and the idea seems to be split as to what is correct.

Can anyone provide opinion as to which it should be?

Bin

[CDN Aviator]

What I'm trying to understand is why, when I'm given a coffee and a muffin at a hotel, would this meal be considered anything even close to the equivalent to a normal sized meal.

Its not. I do this alot.....and i mean ALOT and not once is the breakfast at the hotel ( continental type) considered to replace your breakfast per diem. Your OR and CoC should be on top of that.

[Bintheredunthat-Muzzled]

Ah ha - another person that does it - but where is the black & white with justification?  Unfortunately, this is what I need to plead my case.

Reason I ask, is because the OR is the culprit all of a sudden for saying - "Nope" because of however it is that they read TD info.

I'd be happy to agree with whomever can really point me in the right direction.     Until then, a coffee & a muffin is costing me $13.45.

BTW - what do I get for my 100th post?
 
Bin

[George Wallace]

BTW - what do I get for my 100th post?
 
Bin

We will try to promise not to wack your peepee for your next five posts.


 

[Not_So_Arty_Newbie]

There is somewhere, perhaps in the real of health promotion, or food service or whereever what defines a meal, a former CC looked this up for me once and there is somewhere where it shows that a continental breakfast does not meet the minimun nutritional requirements for CF Mbrs, I'll try to dig it up as I'm sure I kept it handy for circumstances like this.

[ArmyVern]

DCBA ...

Section 7: (Travel in Canada/Continental USA – Overnight stay --- page 21 ---)

7.10   Meals

(1)   A member is entitled to reimbursement for the applicable meal allowance rates as set out in Appendix C of the following Treasury Board website, http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TBM_113/td-dv_e.asp, for each breakfast, lunch and dinner while on TD.  Members shall only claim for those meals that they were not provided.  A member is not entitled to reimbursement with respect to a meal that is provided by a third party or other government agency.

(2)   A member is entitled to reimbursement provided that:
a)   for breakfast, the member must depart from home on duty travel before 0630 hrs;

b)   for lunch, the member must be on travel status between 1130 hrs and 1300 hrs; and

c)   for dinner, the member must arrive at home after 1800 hrs.

(3)   If it is determined that no meals were provided on a flight, a member is entitled to claim the per diem meal rate without receipts.  However, where a member considers that a meal was insufficient, receipts are required for the alternate meal consumed.  Substantiation must be provided to the approving authority before the meal expense is reimbursed.  Snacks, i.e., pretzels, peanuts and chips do not constitute a meal.

(4)   If a member declines a meal included in the travel or conference package and seeks reimbursement for an alternate meal, the member must provide written substantiation to the approving authority for refusal.

(5)   It is the member’s personal responsibility to provide advance notice to the airlines or other appropriate service providers, to ensure that their religious beliefs or dietary requirements can be accommodated.

(6)   For TD travel in the USA, the rate payable shall be in US funds.

(7)   In accordance with CFAOs 28-1 and 209-4 http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/028-01_e.asp and http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/209-04_e.asp, rations shall be utilized where available.  When a member is in US military quarters without cooking facilities and access to rations the member shall receive full per diem for the first thirty (30) days.  Thereafter a member is eligible for seventy-five per cent (75%) of meals and seventy-five per cent (75%) of incidentals.  Meals claimed while a member is provided free rations and quarters must be accompanied by a receipt as well as the rationale for not utilizing the rations.

(8 )   If a member has no choice but to reside in commercial accommodations without cooking facilities for the duration of the duty travel, the member is entitled to the full per diem meal rates.  However, if the member selects to reside in private vice commercial accommodation, the member is entitled to the full per diem meal rates for the first thirty (30) days and seventy-five percent (75%) thereafter.

(9)   If a member occupies US military, corporate, government or school residences, apartment hotels or similar type accommodation with cooking facilities or non-commercial accommodation, the member is entitled to the full per diem meal rate for the initial thirty (30) days.  Thereafter, a member is entitled to be paid seventy five percent (75%) of the daily meal allowance for the remainder of the TD period.

If I were you, I'd be making the argument that IAW Canada's Food Guide to Healthy Eating (The CF standard for meal ratio & nutrition), a muffin does NOT constitute a meal, but is realisitcly a "snack."

Much in the bit I've quoted here again:

If it is determined that no meals were provided on a flight, a member is entitled to claim the per diem meal rate without receipts. However, where a member considers that a meal was insufficient, receipts are required for the alternate meal consumed.  Substantiation must be provided to the approving authority before the meal expense is reimbursed.  Snacks, i.e., pretzels, peanuts and chips do not constitute a meal.

Change to:

If it is determined that no meals were provided on a flightin the Hotel, a member is entitled to claim the per diem meal rate without receipts.

Snacks, i.e., pretzels, peanuts and chips muffins do not constitute a meal

Ergo, you are entitled to the per diem ... without receipts.

[ArmyVern]

And further:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/j4mat-dglog/dlogsvs/manual/final/A-85-269-001_FP-001/269Chapter6_e.doc

Chapter 6 from the Food Services’ Direction & Guidance Manual specificly sets out what kitchens must supply to constitute an acceptable standard of meal:

Section 1, Art 602 (page 2):

602.    Food Services’ Role in Maintaining Nutritional Health

2.   CF Food Svcs Operations shall provide food choices that enable diners to meet normal nutritional requirements as expressed by Health Canada in Canada Food's Guide to Healthy Eating.  CF food services personnel should also understand:

a.   the standard expressed in the Food Guide to enable them to interpret it into meals/menus;

b.   the role of nutrients at Annex A – Main Nutrients Contributed by Food Groups; and

c.   how to preserve nutrients during food storage and preparation at Annex B – A Guide for the Retention of Nutrients.

3.   Diners are responsible for choosing foods that will maintain their nutritional health.  CF food services are responsible for providing food, in the most appealing way possible, that satisfies the requirements of the Food Guide.  This means that, all four food groups must be available at every meal, there must be a variety within those food groups, and portions and/or selection must be large enough for diners to obtain the required number of servings of each food group.  In addition, choices that reflect Canada’s Guidelines for Healthy Eating must be available, including lower fat products, whole grain products, decaffeinated coffee, and lower salt in food preparation.

[NFLD Sapper]

I  just bring receipts to my OR and let them deal with it   

[ArmyVern]

I  just bring receipts to my OR and let them deal with it   

Until your OR tells you that little pot of 1/2 a cup of coffee and one meal constitutes "breakfast."

Then you'd be here wouldn't you?