Topic: MESO vs. MEM

[tumbling_dice]

Hi everyone,

So I've tried my best to research this (as in I searched MESO and looked at all ten topics) and have come up short.  How different are Regular Force and Reserve Force Engineers.  From what I've heard the main difference is the reserves work the systems while the regular force can work and fix them.

So...

1. Does any of the reserve force training transfer over to regular force? I find it hard to believe that a C ticket Chief Engineer in the reserves couldn't receive any bypasses in the regular force, but I honestly don't know, the two trades could be apples and oranges.

2.  I know that in your reserve training career you will do three sets of OJT experience of 4-6 months each.  Is this cumulative (as in you can do it on weekends and just rack up sea hours over your career) or does it all have to be done as a sort of tour.

3. About how long does it take to finish all your reserve training (ie. get your C ticket) and what do you do after you have finished all the training?  I don't mean how long hour for hour are all the courses, I mean considering courses are only available at certain times in the year how does this all work out?

4.  Finally, are QL levels usually accompanied with ranks (ie. you finish QL 3 and become a PO2) or is it based on seniority and, like in cadets, are there rules as to how many PO1 and CPO2 are allowed (I'm assuming you can still only have one CPO1)

Thank you so much and I really appreciate any answers.

[kratz]

Going from MESO to Mar Eng is a Occupational Transfer (OT) vice a Component Transfer  (CT)as the positions are that different. MESO are operators while Mar Eng earn certification through Canadian Forces Naval Engineering School Detachment  in Newfoundland.  I have watched PO1 MESO with 20 years service OT to Mar Eng and be posted to a ship as a Leading Seaman.  The timings to get your drawings done and standing your boards is set out when you start your training. It can be broken up between contracts, but if you do not meet the minimum time frame, a Training Review Board (TRB) may be held to ask and answer why you have not completed your training for that ticket. On average, for a MESO A Ticket can be achieved in 4-6 months of OJT.  Training is continuous in a member's career, it is never "finished". Yes, MESO tickets are linked with ranks. So a Leading Seaman would have earned  their A ticket and a Master Seaman would have taken their PLQ and earned their B ticket.

[sledge]

Yes, MESO tickets are linked with ranks. So a Leading Seaman would have earned  their A ticket and a Master Seaman would have taken their PLQ and earned their B ticket.

Nice try but wrong, an A ticket could be a OD to MS. A B ticket can be a LS through PO1. C tickets are PO1 to CPO1. So they are not linked to ranks. Promotions above LS are merited.

[Chief Stoker]

Going from MESO to Mar Eng is a Occupational Transfer (OT) vice a Component Transfer  (CT)as the positions are that different. MESO are operators while Mar Eng earn certification through Canadian Forces Naval Engineering School Detachment  in Newfoundland.  I have watched PO1 MESO with 20 years service OT to Mar Eng and be posted to a ship as a Leading Seaman.  The timings to get your drawings done and standing your boards is set out when you start your training. It can be broken up between contracts, but if you do not meet the minimum time frame, a Training Review Board (TRB) may be held to ask and answer why you have not completed your training for that ticket. On average, for a MESO A Ticket can be achieved in 4-6 months of OJT.  Training is continuous in a member's career, it is never "finished". Yes, MESO tickets are linked with ranks. So a Leading Seaman would have earned  their A ticket and a Master Seaman would have taken their PLQ and earned their B ticket.

With the severe manning problems we are now facing, a PO1 MESO doing a component transfer will be granted his basic, NETP, PLQ, ILQ and ALQ. He keeps his sea time and now it seems if he is Class C when he transfers will get to keep his Class C pay until his reg force pay catches up. I haven't heard of any PO1 transfers although the highest rank i'd heard of be given is LS pay level 4. What I have heard now is that MESO's component transfers may be given upgrading to put them in line with their regular force counterparts, so higher ranks may be given out.

[yak]

Going from MESO to Mar Eng is a Occupational Transfer (OT) vice a Component Transfer  (CT)as the positions are that different. MESO are operators while Mar Eng earn certification through Canadian Forces Naval Engineering School Detachment  in Newfoundland.  I have watched PO1 MESO with 20 years service OT to Mar Eng and be posted to a ship as a Leading Seaman.  The timings to get your drawings done and standing your boards is set out when you start your training. It can be broken up between contracts, but if you do not meet the minimum time frame, a Training Review Board (TRB) may be held to ask and answer why you have not completed your training for that ticket. On average, for a MESO A Ticket can be achieved in 4-6 months of OJT.  Training is continuous in a member's career, it is never "finished". Yes, MESO tickets are linked with ranks. So a Leading Seaman would have earned  their A ticket and a Master Seaman would have taken their PLQ and earned their B ticket.

Actually, Mar Eng are coursed / trained through the Canadian Forces Fleet School Engineering Division, either in Halifax or Esquimalt.  The training you refer to in Newfoundland is part of the Marine Engineering Technician Training Program (METTP).

Mar Eng are certified after completing courses, OJT, and then passing exams and boards.

Rank and promotion are linked in the Mar Eng world.  For example, you will not see a MS Mar Eng Tech who has not attained a Cert 2.  You cannot be promoted to PO1 unless you have a Cert 3, likewise no promotion to CPO2 without a Cert 4.  Personnel who find themselves high on the merit list without their ticket will see that others will be promoted from beneath them.

I have never heard of a MESO, regardless of rank, being given a rank above that of LS in the RegF as a Mar Eng.  There is quite a large differnce in skill sets and training required.  For instance, the Mar Eng QL5 is the better part of two years covering academics and hand skills (from diesel maintenance to machining) before the Mar Eng Mech becomes a Tech (and gets spec pay).

[tumbling_dice]

a PO1 MESO doing a component transfer will be granted his basic, NETP, PLQ, ILQ and ALQ.

Sorry, pretty new at this, I know what NETP is but not the others.  Taking a shot in the dark I'm assuming PLQ is Pratical Leadership Qualification.  Do you have to take these to continue in your trades training (ie. you can't do QL4 without PLQ) or are they only related to rank (ie. you need PLQ to be a PO2 but as stated before it doesn't affect where you are in your trades training).  Thanks alot for the help thus far.

[Sub-normal]

Sorry, pretty new at this, I know what NETP is but not the others.  Taking a shot in the dark I'm assuming PLQ is Pratical Leadership Qualification.  Do you have to take these to continue in your trades training (ie. you can't do QL4 without PLQ) or are they only related to rank (ie. you need PLQ to be a PO2 but as stated before it doesn't affect where you are in your trades training).  Thanks alot for the help thus far.

PLQ (primary leadership qualification) is needed to be a Master Seaman, ILQ (intermediate leadership qualification)  is needed to be a PO1 and ALQ (advanced leadership Qualification) is need to become a CPO2.

[tumbling_dice]

Do Naval Reserves do this training as well?  If so, full-time/part-time and where? And, as I asked before, does it relate to how far you can go in trades training. 

I know its a lot of questions and all the answers thus far have been extremely helpful.

[Sub-normal]

Do Naval Reserves do this training as well?  If so, full-time/part-time and where? And, as I asked before, does it relate to how far you can go in trades training. 

I am not a reserve but as  far as I know the reserves do the same leadership course as the reg force since I had a couple of reserves on my reg force PLQ and these courses are done as full time courses and not part time.  The PLQs are done at various bases, but the ILQ and the ALQ are both done St Jean at the old CMR campus.

[Chief Stoker]

Do Naval Reserves do this training as well?  If so, full-time/part-time and where? And, as I asked before, does it relate to how far you can go in trades training. 

I know its a lot of questions and all the answers thus far have been extremely helpful.

Naval Reserves do the same basic, NETP, PLQ, ILQ and ALQ as the regular force. It doesn't matter if your full time or part time, the only difference as a "full time reservist" you will advance faster in trade and rank faster tham a part time member. If you are full time and posted to a ship you will receieve Class C pay, which is the same as regular force basic pay.

[tumbling_dice]

Sorry to cause confusion, I was actually asking if reservists take PLQ, ILQ, ALQ, and CQ part-time or do they only take them full time with reg force members?

[Chief Stoker]

Sorry to cause confusion, I was actually asking if reservists take PLQ, ILQ, ALQ, and CQ part-time or do they only take them full time with reg force members?

No nothing part time as far as I know, however most courses can be taken in the summer. All leadership courses for NAVRES usually have a mixed res/reg loading.

[kratz]

NavRes does offer a Ditributed Training (DT) PLQ through CFFS(Q). The first phase is in the NRD, with the second phase of the course is full-time in QC for three weeks.

[tumbling_dice]

In relation for to one of my other questions, after you do MESO QL1, QL2 is OJT experience (4-6 months).  It says that OJT can be tailored around the member's schedule.  Would I be able to, for example, do four months (120 days) over 60 weekends on the MCDVs? (The idea behind this is I'm thinking of doing a degree in Mechanical Engineering and thought that being a MESO would be the most relevant naval reserves occupation but this obviously puts strain on time especially because the University of Victoria has a mandatory Co-op program.)

[kratz]

Most of the time, weekend training with NavRes is used for CRR training (ie: WHIMIS or HA), or team training (firefighting or damange control refresher). "Tailored training" referes to completing an Availability Report (AVREP) that is inputted into the system , so your Career Manager (CM) is able to offer you a one, two or three week contract that matches a hole on one of the ship's sailing training schedual. Unless you live in Halifax or Victoria, your NRD is not going to want to pay the travel costs to send you on OJT for 60 weekends. Depending on your AVREP,  OJT is ideally done in longer streatches, between 1, 2 or even 4 months on board. This offers you the greatest opportunity to complete the most of your package as possible.

[E.R. Campbell]

Most of the time, weekend training with NavRes is used for CRR training (ie: WHIMIS or HA), or team training (firefighting or damange control refresher). "Tailored training" referes to completing an Availability Report (AVREP) that is inputted into the system , so your Career Manager (CM) is able to offer you a one, two or three week contract that matches a hole on one of the ship's sailing training schedual. Unless you live in Halifax or Victoria, your NRD is not going to want to pay the travel costs to send you on OJT for 60 weekends. Depending on your AVREP,  OJT is ideally done in longer streatches, between 1, 2 or even 4 months on board. This offers you the greatest opportunity to complete the most of your package as possible.

Thanks for reminding me that CM = Career Mangler. Now could you expand CRR, WHIMIS and HA for we tired, old (very old) soldiers?
 
Thanks, again.

[George Wallace]

WHMIS    or      Workplace Hazardous Materials Information System

HA        or      Harassment Adviser (although some Trades have another meaning/use for this abbr.)

[sledge]

CRR= combat Readiness requirements

[Chief Stoker]

Perhaps you should think about the ORCA's. At the last MESO council meeting it was proposed to open up training for primarily Class A members to get their tickets on the ORCA's and only have that qualification. You have have no problem getting your actual engine room ticket since you already have experience.

[tumbling_dice]

I've thought about ORCAs, but I'll probably have lots of experience on them already.  I do live in Victoria and I'm the only Cadet engineer on the island with my ORCA second engineer ticket, which means when they bring cadets out on the ORCA 9 times out of 10 I'll be their because I'm the least expensive option (compared to bring out a main land engineer or bring a paid regular or reserve force person out).

[tumbling_dice]

On a related topic, I know MESOs are not the same as Marine Engineer Mechanics, but can they still volunteer to go on the heavies as engineers?

[Chief Stoker]

Generally no. I have been on steamers before and was given training to get my AMOC,but that was a unique situation. With the state of our manning right now there's no way NAVRES is going to cut a contract for a MESO to sail on a CPF or 280. Now if they did, a MESO would have to train to get their ticket like any other roundsman, its possible but highly unlikely.

[tumbling_dice]

Has anyone done a co-op degree while working as a MESO, maybe N. McKay? I know it would be hard, by I've heard rumours that it can be done.

[N. McKay]

Has anyone done a co-op degree while working as a MESO, maybe N. McKay?

Sorry -- civil engineer!

[tumbling_dice]

Thanks anyway.

[Sailorwest]

Thanks anyway.

I would think that trying to do a degree while employed on one of the 5 (wait 4) active Kin Class ships would be a challenge. You would be at sea plenty and although you have time to yourself, being able to focus on the education part with all the distractions of being at sea would be plenty tough. I know people whoare able to do it while posted to a shore billet, and they even may attend classes and lectures.  Unless you're doing only one course at a time, it would be a challenge.

[MARS]

Sailorwest is entirely correct.  Your time on board a ship as a MESO will be very busy.  You will sail lots and when your particular ship isn't sailing, be prepared to perhaps join another ship that is because they are likely short MESOs as well, although this is mostly at the B-ticket (Engineering Officer-of-the-Watch) level.

earlier quote:
"In relation for to one of my other questions, after you do MESO QL1, QL2 is OJT experience (4-6 months).  It says that OJT can be tailored around the member's schedule.  Would I be able to, for example, do four months (120 days) over 60 weekends on the MCDVs? (The idea behind this is I'm thinking of doing a degree in Mechanical Engineering and thought that being a MESO would be the most relevant naval reserves occupation but this obviously puts strain on time especially because the University of Victoria has a mandatory Co-op program.)"

Kratz's advice here is sound.  Your 4-6 months of OJT being "tailored" around an individual's schedule has limits.  Weekends will be a no-go, in addition to the cost that Kratz outlined.  Weekends are one of the few periods when the ship ISN'T sailing - it will likely be alongside home or foreign port - either way, no training is going on.  You need 4-6 months of sea-time (mostly) to gain experience conducting drills and whatnot.  The number of requirements to complete combined with the number of hours you must stand (sea going in addition to harbour-watch hours - the exact number escapes me) requires you to spend much time at sea.  And it really does take 4-6 months - this is the barrier for Class A (part-time) MESOs who simply cannot get that much time off from their civilian employers.  So, a schedule "tailored" around your schedule implies blocks of time - weeks (preferably months) at a time.

[tumbling_dice]

So MESOs are assigned to ships, not to reserve divisions?  I was planning on parading with HMCS Malahat. I do live in Victoria, so I can find my own way to CFB Esquimalt.

[Sailorwest]

So MESOs are assigned to ships, not to reserve divisions?  I was planning on parading with HMCS Malahat. I do live in Victoria, so I can find my own way to CFB Esquimalt.

When you join, you would join the NRD at MALAHAT. You do parade with them from Sept to Apr every year. Once you get your QL1 course done, in order to get OJT for your progression, you need to be posted to the ship. As was indicated, the possibility of acquiring time on weekends over the year in probably a non-starter as the ships, unless they are deployed, rarely sail on weekends. For some weird reason, sailors don't want to work 7 days a week. I don't get it, they get paid for every day don't they?
Although you may be able to submit a NATRAP indicating your availability for periods of time that the ship is sailing that fit with your school, your best bet for time towards OJPR, is during the summer training period, when you are out of school. Your Natrap should result in a posting message to a ship for the purpose of OJT.  Other than that, take a year off school to get the OJT and maybe QL2, all in one shot and then go back to school

[tumbling_dice]

First of all thanks so much, you've all been very helpful.  And believe me, I would work eight days a week if I could, but ridiculous thnigs like school do sometimes have to take priority.  Anyway, I was planning on doing my first work term with the Reserves in order to finish my first OJT.  What would life look like after that (assuming I get my "A" ticket).  And also, if I started in September, would I not be able to do any of the distance QL1 training until after my summer BMQ or could I get a head start and then just do the formal three week Quebec course after my BMQ?

[MARS]

Stoker would be better able to answer career progression questions than I.  With respect to doing DL and BMQ - you do BMQ first.  You can't get a head start because the CF has no idea if you are even going to pass BMQ, so we don't bother allocating resources toward a person's MOS training until they have at least passed that first step.  So, if you "start" in September (by which I am assuming you mean you will be enrolled) then you will undertake BMQ training the following summer and then MESO trg the summer after that.

[tumbling_dice]

What would I do up until my BMQ?

[Sailorwest]

What would I do up until my BMQ?

Not a lot really. You may get a first aid course and parade with the unit regularly. I'm not sure when you need to do NETP but part of that might be done at the unit level. You would likely end up in a pre-BMQ division, depending on how MAL does business. Although you have a cadet background, the system is geared around people with no experience. Until you get a QL 1 course, you would not likely do any trade specific training either, but that would depend again on MAL.

[kratz]

The summer pre-BMQ training has a DL package that are to be completed prior to be loaded onto the course at NRTD in Borden. This is to accommodate the 10 week summer BMQ vice the standard 13 week BMQ other times of the year. I do not have the list at home, but as SW mentioned, some of the chapters that will need to be completed include: rank recognition, pay and benefits briefing, first aid, WHIMIS training, SHARP training,  and simple drill at the halt.

[Deadmau5]

Myself I am on my NETP and I wanna be a Meso along with later switch to MEM.
Do you guys know what I have to do to be able to get Meso if I am a boatswain?

[Pat in Halifax]

MESO from Bos'n - Request a OT (Occupation Transfer). As well, stop using the term MEM. It is a kipper (RN) term which has NEVER been used in our Navy (Not even the "old" RCN!). All that said, I would almost suggest if you wish to eventually go RegF MAR ENG, why not request the CT (Component Transfer) as soon as you are done NETP?
Maybe "MESO OCCUPATION Mgr" can chime in here, but there is a move afoot (finally) to bring these two occupations (MESO and MAR ENG) closer together. I know for a fact that there is a meeting here in Ottawa today and tomorrow with a group of CPO stokers (MESO and MAR ENG) as well as the RegF MAR ENG MOC Mgr to discuss.
 

[Deadmau5]

Well it's depends if reg force will accept my schooling in Saskatoon saskatchewan which  I am taking mechanica engineering at siast for 2 years. Which I wanna complete for 2 years or do I stick with reserves which pays 8000 for it. The question is will will reg force accept it or wouldn't   recognize it?

[CDN Aviator]

Well it's depends if reg force will accept my schooling in Saskatoon saskatchewan which  I am taking mechanica engineering at siast for 2 years. Which I wanna complete for 2 years or do I stick with reserves which pays 8000 for it. The question is will will reg force accept it or wouldn't   recognize it?

I don't know if they will recognize your English..........

[Deadmau5]

Sorry recognize the college or tech school.

[Pat in Halifax]

I think he meant the grammar and spelling in your post! (put the can of beer down!) ... Anyway, you should have a PLAR (Prior Learning Assessment) done. I, myself have a Mechanical Engineering Technologist diploma and yes, indeed, it did mean something.

[NavalMoose]

Hey Pat in Halifax, stop using the term "kipper" to describe RN personnel, it's offensive.


http://www.forces.ca/en/job/marineengineeringmechanic-31

[N. McKay]

Hey Pat in Halifax, stop using the term "kipper" to describe RN personnel, it's offensive.

I don't think it's meant to be.  But, I see that you're a former RN member so I guess offence is in the ear of the beholder!

[Deadmau5]

Overall how did the meeting go for the new engineering department? Also is there a Pre DL learning package online now for Meso's or is it all practical.