Topic: IMPROVED PROCEDURES TO RETURN TO REGULAR FORCE SERVICE

[agc]

CANFORGEN 002/11 CDS 001/11 101504Z JAN 11

CF RETENTION STRATEGY IMPROVED PROCEDURES TO RETURN TO REGULAR FORCE SERVICE
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. CANFORGEN 072/09 CDS 012/09 221848Z APR 09 CF RETENTION STRATEGY - IMPROVED PROCEDURES TO RETURN TO REGULAR FORCE SERVICE
B. ROD FROM AFC 21 JAN 09
C. QR AND O CHAP 6, ENROLMENT AND RE-ENGAGEMENT
D. DAOD 5002-1, ENROLMENT-REGULAR FORCE
E. CBI 204.015, PAY INCREMENTS

1.      THIS CANFORGEN REPLACES REF A. AS MANY OF YOU ARE AWARE, THE RE-ENROLMENT PROCESS FOR FORMER REGULAR MEMBERS WAS INEFFICIENT. IN AN ATTEMPT TO REBUILD AND STRENGTHEN OUR FORCES, I AM PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE THAT THE PROCESS TO RE-ENROL HAS NOW BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY STREAMLINED

2.      EFFECTIVE 01 APR 09, AND IAW REF A, THE MEMBER PERSONNEL RECORD RESUME (MPRR) WILL BE THE SOURCE DOCUMENT FOR PREVIOUS REGULAR FORCE MEMBERS WHO MEET ALL OF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS:

3.      PREVIOUS CF REGULAR FORCE EXPERIENCE AND CURRENTLY A CIVILIAN OR A MEMBER OF A RESERVE FORCE SUB-COMPONENT OTHER THAN THE PRIMARY RESERVE. NOTE THAT CURRENT PRIMARY RESERVE MEMBERS WILL CONTINUE TO USE THE EXISTING COMPONENT TRANSFER PROCESS

4.      RELEASED FROM THE REGULAR FORCE WITHIN THE PAST 5 YEARS

5.      OCCUPATION QUALIFIED

6.      RELEASED FROM THE REGULAR FORCE UNDER ITEMS 4, 5B OR 5C

7.      MEETS ALL OTHER QUALIFICATIONS, CONDITIONS AND STANDARDS FOR ENROLMENT OR COMPONENT TRANSFER

8.      DESIRES RE-ENROLMENT TO PREVIOUS OCCUPATION

9.      THE REGULAR FORCE MPRR WILL BE THE MAIN SOURCE USED TO DETERMINE RANK AND QUALIFICATIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS RETURNING TO REGULAR FORCE SERVICE. RANK, TIME IN RANK AND YEARS OF SERVICE ON RELEASE WILL BE CREDITED TO THE INDIVIDUAL APPLYING TO RE-ENROL INTO THE REGULAR FORCE. THIS INFORMATION WILL BE THE BASIS FOR THE D MIL C DETERMINATION OF RE-ENROLMENT OFFER. ERRORS FOUND IN THE MPRR CAN BE CORRECTED THROUGH THE USE OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTATION

10.     FORMER REGULAR FORCE MEMBERS WILL BE RE-ENROLLED INTO THE REGULAR FORCE SUBJECT TO THE AVAILABILITY OF AN ENROLMENT VACANCY, I.E., A STRATEGIC INTAKE PLAN REQUIREMENT, AT THE SUBSTANTIVE RANK INDICATED ON THEIR REGULAR FORCE MPRR WITH THEIR QUALIFYING SERVICE USED TO DETERMINE PAY AND SENIORITY LEVELS. TOS WILL BE OFFERED ON THE BASIS OF SERVICE REQUIREMENT AND EXISTING QR AND O PROVISIONS.

11.     THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT CHANGE TO CURRENT ENROLMENT PRACTICES WHICH I BELIEVE WILL GO A LONG WAY TOWARDS REINFORCING MY COMMITMENT TO FORMER REGULAR FORCE MEMBERS WHO POSSESS SKILL SETS THAT WE REQUIRE.

12.     SIGNED BY GEN W.J. NATYNCZYK, CDS

[Sigger]

RGR

Changes were made to para 10.
The recruiter advised me this CANFORGEN is utilized in Ottawa, not at the recruiter level. He did however mention a new signing bonus for QL3 trained mbr's looking to get back in for certain trades. I have not been able to locate this document as of yet.

Thank you for the update.

[Sigger]

Update:

I was in for my Medical and interview yesterday.
Due to this CANFORGEN, the interview was about 15 mikes. I was advised by the Capt at the CFRC I will be entering with my same rank and time in. All that is needed is my credit and reference check to return, then when a position is available, the Career Manager will send an offer. Pretty painless, actually.

[CountDC]

great! Nice to see the system improving somewhere.  Hope it doesn't take long for you to get your offer.

[painswessex]

Man this is a good thing to bad i had so many hoops to jump through to get back in now i have to wait for the revised para 10 a vacancy for april hopefully

[AM83]

Ive release under 4C, anyone else here too? and  playing the waiting game.

[M_M]

Ive release under 4C, anyone else here too? and  playing the waiting game.

I released under 4C as well.... but due to being an officer, no waiting required. They know that voluntary trade transfers are not easy to get and are pretty much expecting us to get out and come back in off the street for the trade we tried to VOR to. 

On the release SOU, article 11 there was some mention of "implications" of re-enrolling within 60 days of release. I asked the release section but they had no clue. Anyone have any idea what that might be referring to?

[SeaKingTacco]

I released under 4C as well.... but due to being an officer, no waiting required. They know that voluntary trade transfers are not easy to get and are pretty much expecting us to get out and come back in off the street for the trade we tried to VOR to. 

On the release SOU, article 11 there was some mention of "implications" of re-enrolling within 60 days of release. I asked the release section but they had no clue. Anyone have any idea what that might be referring to?

So...you...are...gaming the system? 

[AmmoTech90]

I released under 4C as well.... but due to being an officer, no waiting required. They know that voluntary trade transfers are not easy to get and are pretty much expecting us to get out and come back in off the street for the trade we tried to VOR to. 

Given para 8

8.      DESIRES RE-ENROLMENT TO PREVIOUS OCCUPATION

How does this CANFORGEN help someone trying to do what you are?

[M_M]

So...you...are...gaming the system? 

I'm really not sure what you mean by "gaming the system" ...

There isn't as great of a system in place for an officer to change trades as there are for people in the ranks. The recruiter for the trade I want actually TOLD me, that this was what I had to do. There was simply no other way. This is actually common practice for officers who want to switch trades but are repeatedly denied.

How does this CANFORGEN help someone trying to do what you are?

In previous years, there were some stories of people having start over from 2Lt again. Recently people are getting their old rank and pay grades back. It's not written explicitly in THIS CANFORGEN.

I was trying to help buddy out in case he didn't know he didn't have to wait and asking a question about the "implications" stated in para 11 of SOU upon release and figured other people getting back in might know. Instead of answers you guys are giving me a hard time. Sheesh...

[SeaKingTacco]

I'm not giving you a hard time.

 I am genuinely trying to figure out what you are trying to do.  You don't have to answer if you think it would give away too much info, but I am curious what stage of your career are you currently in (ie are you still untrained, or have you become occupationally qualified in your current occupation?) and if obligatory service is a player in your scenario.

I am also curious why you have been denied a VOT.  Is your current occupation distressed?  Is your target occupation overborne?  Are you absolutely certain you qualify (medically, academically) for your target occupation?

Finally, I have big question marks about who would give you such advice.  Admittedly, I am working with only posts on the internet, but you are taking a big risk IMHO by releasing- there is no guarantee you will be allowed back in the CF.

[Eye In The Sky]

I released under 4C as well.... but due to being an officer, no waiting required. They know that voluntary trade transfers are not easy to get and are pretty much expecting us to get out and come back in off the street for the trade we tried to VOR to. 

On the release SOU, article 11 there was some mention of "implications" of re-enrolling within 60 days of release. I asked the release section but they had no clue. Anyone have any idea what that might be referring to?

I thought he was out already, and re-entering....and that was because he was not able to change MOCs within the OVOTP??

[Eye In The Sky]

There isn't as great of a system in place for an officer to change trades as there are for people in the ranks.

I'm pretty familiar in the NCM OT processes (MOC Reassignment, COT, VOT) and programs (COTP, AVOTP, LOTP, and recently SVOTP) and requirements

- MOC Reassignment if you are not QL3 qual'd,
- LOTP if Combat Arms with 36 months service and QL4 qual'd (QL3 qual'd if no QL4 in MOC)
- COTP & AVOTP if you have 48 months of service and QL4 qual (QL3 if no QL4 in MOC)

Of course NCMs also have to meet medical/CFAT/etc requirements for the trade you wish to move to.

Aside from the fact there are less #s of OVOTPs because there are less #s of Officers than NCMs, what are the differences that make the OVOTP "not a great system" compared to the NCM side?

[M_M]

I'm pretty familiar in the NCM OT processes (MOC Reassignment, COT, VOT) and programs (COTP, AVOTP, LOTP, and recently SVOTP) and requirements

- MOC Reassignment if you are not QL3 qual'd,
- LOTP if Combat Arms with 36 months service and QL4 qual'd (QL3 qual'd if no QL4 in MOC)
- COTP & AVOTP if you have 48 months of service and QL4 qual (QL3 if no QL4 in MOC)

Of course NCMs also have to meet medical/CFAT/etc requirements for the trade you wish to move to.

Aside from the fact there are less #s of OVOTPs because there are less #s of Officers than NCMs, what are the differences that make the OVOTP "not a great system" compared to the NCM side?

We don't have all of those options you listed above - there is only one type of VOT. Further, career managers often give you a hard time if your trade is yellow or just came out of being yellow.  There are also some training plans that you can try for such as med/dent/chaplain/pharm/physio which is also open to the rest of the CF. Career managers, again can step in and say "no". There have been instances where aircrew members have been told while trying to apply that regardless of whether they get selected: they are not allowed to go. 

I thought he was out already, and re-entering....and that was because he was not able to change MOCs within the OVOTP??

Yes, I am already out. The longer you stay in your current trade, the more cause they have to hold you longer in your trade and refuse your VOR because of your skill sets. I know a guy who spent 10 years in the Navy submitting a VOR EVERY SINGLE YEAR for an open air force trade he wanted and was refused. Eventually he got fed up, released and signed back in under the trade he wanted.

I don't want to turn this into "unrelated-to-post" story time here, if you have more questions, please PM me.   

[CDN Aviator]

Officer or NCM , it does not matter, the CoC does not have the authority to refuse an OT once a member has been selected. If the trade is not red, the career manager does not have the authority to refuse the OT.

[captloadie]

Although true the CoC cannot refuse once the member is accepted, they can go a long way in making sure the member is deemed unsuitable for the plan they are requesting. The CM, even in a green MOSID, has a number he can let OT, and being accepted doesn't necessarily mean you make the cut.

That being said, I personally don't know many officers that VOT after reaching the Capt rank, unless they are going into a specialty trade (MO, Legad, Dental, maybe HCA).

[M_M]

Although true the CoC cannot refuse once the member is accepted, they can go a long way in making sure the member is deemed unsuitable for the plan they are requesting.

That's exactly the problem. They can write horrible references or give you horrible PERs for the next session.

That being said, I personally don't know many officers that VOT after reaching the Capt rank, unless they are going into a specialty trade (MO, Legad, Dental, maybe HCA).

Some people just never liked the trade they go to begin with, or didn't like it after they got on phase training, or don't like the lifestyle of certain trades after they get married/start a family. The guy I was talking about released as an Lt (N) because he hated the Navy so much and got back in as an air force officer. 

Officer or NCM , it does not matter, the CoC does not have the authority to refuse an OT once a member has been selected. If the trade is not red, the career manager does not have the authority to refuse the OT.

Have you met/dealt the aircrew CMs? They rarely approve anything that would involve a trained pilot/nav leaving their trade forever, save for compassionate reasons.

[Eye In The Sky]

Just a small point, but even RED trades are not 'closed'.  0.5% of the TES is the OUTCAP for red, 1% for amber, 2% for green.  For NCM atleast, I've never read up on the Officer side of the house.

I am sure that CM's aren't drawing much attention to that in their Briefings though...

[CountDC]

Just to add my  for what little it is worth this is not the first time I have heard what M_M is mentioning.  I have talked to a couple of officers in the past that mentioned going the same route to change over although they did do it at the 2Lt/Lt stage.

M_M - the navy officer case sounds familiar - was he by chance on the east coast?

[GurneyHalleck]

Like a couple of other guys who have posted in here, I was advised by CoC/BPSO that as a member who was not MOC qualified, it would be in my best interest to leave (Release item 4c.) and rejoin the forces in the trade I wanted as opposed to waiting on a VOR that would take (insert vague estimate here) to complete. I was told at the time that all my qualifications would carry over, as well as my pay grade (P-3). This has me worried, though.

Obviously this CANFORGEN doesn't apply to me directly - but I wonder - this would seem to indicate there is a mechanism for recognizing previous qualifications. Therefore, can anyone answer definitively - will my BMQ be recognized? AsI was a cbt arms recruit, "BMQ-L" for me was just the first 5 weeks of DP1, which I completed and got my crossed muskets infantry badge - but I've been told that since this isn't the same as the BMQ-L course (though as there was a BMQ-L running in parallel with my inf Dp1 course, this confuses me - they ran the same curriculum and timetable as us, only we were up a lot later scrubbing stuff). Will I have to redo the course? And of course I'd like to know if I'd start again as a Pte-Basic in terms of pay..

Thanks

[-Skeletor-]

When you rejoin a PLAR will be submitted - make sure you ask your question to the recruiter. Do you have any paperwork saying you are qualified BMQ-Land ie course certificate.  Do you have your DP1 course report still as that will say which PO's you have completed.  Not sure if those PO's would be valid as you did not(from the sounds of it) finish DP1, ie meaning the BMQ-L qual was granted to you.  Copy of your MPRR - that will list all qualifications you have.


Also crossed muskets Infantry badge?  I assume you mean the Infantry Corps capbadge?

[Jhunt]

Your basic most likely will not be recongnized there has  been a new directive that state any member who releases and is not QL3 will need to redo basic...i have been out just under 5 years and will need to redo it as well

[Jhunt]

I was advised upon releasing my basic would be good as well, but in 2010 a few things changed. Most recruitment centres do not even know of the new changes until you start the process. The directive came from the CDA. Many members are not even aware of it. I have tried to get around it but in the end there is nothing you can do. I know of one other guy so far that has dealt with this as well and lost. So just be aware that although the BPSO says you will be fine chances are you will not. I would get them to look further into the new basic directives for non ql3 members

[Jhunt]

Individuals who want to re-enrol in the CF after a period of absence apply
through normal recruitment procedures. CFRG HQ R7 PLAR and all CFRC's, have
been authorize to validate or recognized common qualifications that are
managed by the Canadian Defence Academy (CDA). Based on the PD system,
(education, training, experience, self development) gained while serving,
the BMQ remains valid for a limited timeframe unless a mbr reach the
Operational Function Point (OFP) before being release from the CF.
 
A BMQ completed on or after 1 January 2003 remains valid for:
 
Time served 12 months - valid for 24 months
Time served 12-23 months - valid for 48 months
Time served 24-35 months - valid for 72 months
Time served 36-59 months - valid for 96 months
Time served 60 months + Qualified for Life
 
Duration of Qualifying Service is as per - CBI 204.015(2)- Qualifying
service.

This is the email I got back from them. Sorry for the multiple posts
 

[dapaterson]

Remember, this policy was to bring back qualified members - people who could draw their uniforms and start working immediately.  Those folks were the priority, not people who decided to quit before they were occupationally qualified and then reconsidered.