Topic: A question for an MCC...

[stabmasterarson]

I am in the process of attempting to become a MAR ENG MECH. I called the recruiting office today to find out when I could book my part 2 medical and interview for the position. I was told on the day I took the test that I passed the CFAT with a high enough score to qualify for the position. I also handed in all my documentation, transcripts, back check, etc. which has been completed as far as I know.

Anyway, on my call today I asked the recruiter if there was any job openings left for mar eng mech this year, and he was looking into it. He then looked at my file and saw that an MCC had left a note there stating that I didn't have the minimum academic requirements for the trade and I didn't qualify.

I graduated high school 18 years ago, I'm guessing my math wasn't high enough. The recruiter told me I needed a grade 10 education with "advanced" math. I had regular grade 11 math as part of my graduation. The MCC that looked at my file is off for a few weeks, and the recruiting center is closed for the holidays pretty quick. I was told I had to talk to that specific MCC to find out what the problem is with my academic requirements.

If I need to do some upgrading, I want to find out what it is ASAP that I need to do. I'm hoping someone out there who is still working or has an idea of what level math I need for the trade could tell me so I can go about getting enrolled for the course(s) I need. I would like to get a job as a MAR ENG MECH before April, if there are any jobs left, that is.

I have searched for "math mar eng mech", "academic qualifications mar eng mech" to no avail, I'm hoping someone has some kind of direction for me aside from "wait", because I know that upgrading courses fill up too and I want to get this done ASAP.

Thanks!

[kincanucks]

Ex MCC here.  I don't have access to the requirements for each trade however it seems your answer is right here:  The recruiter told me I needed a grade 10 education with "advanced" math. If that doesn't convince you then call the CFRC back and ask to speak to another MCC.  This I was told I had to talk to that specific MCC to find out what the problem is with my academic requirements. is a bullshit statement and any MCC can check your file and the requirements and give you an answer.  If that doesn't then get on the recruiting website and ask the online recruiter.

[stabmasterarson]

thanks for the reply KinCanucks,

Sorry, I may have been a little unclear in my first post. The recruiter I talked to was basically on his way out the door for his christmas holidays, and was looking at the note on my file. I don't think he understood exactly what was wrong with my application aside from what the MCC had put as a note in the file, that I didn't have sufficient academic requirements.

I don't think the recruiter I was talking to was an MCC, he didn't identify himself as such. He kindly opened up my file, and saw that I had my grade 12 diploma, etc. He looked at the requirements for the trade, which were grade 10 education and advanced grade 10 math. He then told me that he couldn't tell me any more and to talk to the MCC who looked at my application and made that note.

I work at a trade school as a tutor currently, and I talked to the math instructor. He wasn't sure what advanced grade 10 math meant, as far as the forces were concerned.

I haven't been able to find out the exact educational qualifications for a MAR ENG MECH on any of the forces sites aside from " being strong in math and physics".

I am just about to sign up for an online math upgrade course (aleks) that is supposedly recognized by academic institutions for the purposes of enrolling people into college level math. I'm thinking grade 12 level math is what is needed? Otherwise, I have a grade 12 education, and a couple of 1 year technical citations in various disciplines.

 I just want to be sure I'm not wasting money. I thought I would be proactive and work towards getting the level of math needed for the position during the christmas break.

[kincanucks]

I would make sure that the course would meet the CF requirements first.  Best bet is to go to a local high school see if they have adult night classes and sign up for a grade 10 or higher math class?

[Loachman]

Just to confirm:

You need minimum Grade 10 Math, "Advanced" or otherwise.

You have Grade 12 but do not have Grade 12 Math.

You have Grade 11 Math. Does that not exceed Grade 10 Math? So what is the problem?

[Occam]

Just to confirm:

You need minimum Grade 10 Math, "Advanced" or otherwise.

You have Grade 12 but do not have Grade 12 Math.

You have Grade 11 Math. Does that not exceed Grade 10 Math? So what is the problem?

If I understand everything correctly, stabmasterarson is lacking the Gr. 10 advanced level math.

When he graduated 18 years ago, the curriculum likely followed two paths - general and advanced level subjects.  If one chose the general level Gr.9 math, then one committed themselves to general level maths, and consequently to a general level high school leaving certificate.  If one took advanced maths, one could go on to advanced courses such as algebra, relations & functions and calculus (which were pre-university level subjects), but could fall back to the general program if necessary.

The general level subjects were more practical-based in nature, while the advanced classes leaned more to the theory needed for the next level.

Therefore, Gr. 11 general math did not trump Gr. 10 advanced math at the time.  Gr. 11 general math might have meant you could balance your checkbook, but Gr.10 advanced math meant you could solve for a three-variable linear equation.

[Robodad]

I was in a conference concerning Navy Technical Occupations Trials.   It seems that the navy has had great difficulty in recruiting people for their technical occupations.   The main reason people were being turned down was that the candidates didn't have grade 10 Academic Math and Physics equivalency for Ontario.
CFRG proposed that candidates with grade 12, good military potential and good CFAT scores be recruited, do the BMQ and then go to Halifax for 40 to 50 trg days and learn Academic Math before going on the Academic phase of their QL3.
This is happening at the moment (so I've been told).  I believe that they have 14 people lined up for this trial.

[Loachman]

Gr. 11 general math might have meant you could balance your checkbook, but Gr.10 advanced math meant you could solve for a three-variable linear equation.

Seen.

I took some of that fancy math as far as Grade 13, but I can only remember the useful and practical stuff - like cheque-book balancing.

I guess that I'd better stay in my current classification, where that's adequate...

[Occam]

I was in a conference concerning Navy Technical Occupations Trials.   It seems that the navy has had great difficulty in recruiting people for their technical occupations.   The main reason people were being turned down was that the candidates didn't have grade 10 Academic Math and Physics equivalency for Ontario.
CFRG proposed that candidates with grade 12, good military potential and good CFAT scores be recruited, do the BMQ and then go to Halifax for 40 to 50 trg days and learn Academic Math before going on the Academic phase of their QL3.
This is happening at the moment (so I've been told).  I believe that they have 14 people lined up for this trial.

Everything old is new again.

Back in the 80s-early 90s, the entry standard was Gr 10 advanced math for the NE Tech trades.  Technicians were operators for a few years as a normal part of trade progression, and then they would go on a Pre-Academic course for six (?) weeks to brush up on the basics like fractions, algebra, word problems and geometry.  Then and only then would they be loaded on a QL5 tech course.

Even with the Pre-Academic course, there were a lot of failures because of the math and physics.  Calculus killed off more than a few techs.

The standard was later changed to Gr 12 math/physics to enter the NE Tech trades.  I see they're relaxing the standard again, and I'm sure it's going to come back and bite the CF in the ***.  Did they not learn the first time around?

[Retired FDO]

Here is another case of not all the information getting out. What is happening with the 3 NET and the NWT trades ONLY is;

The Navy is running a trial with 30-35 applicants. What they have done is lower the entry education standard to any grade 10 math or better and any grade 10 physics or better. All applicants will still have to meet the CFAT standard for the NET and NWT occupations. Currently we have been told to process and merit list but wait on the enrolment.

The plan is if they are enrolled they will do BMQ and then attend a math up grade course prior to doing he QL3. If i works then they will look at it for something long term. This trial will not count for NCMSEP. You must still have the the education standard for the trades to be looked at for that program.

What they are doing is looking at the fact that in high school students sometimes don't apply themselves or have an issue with of some sort. It's just a way to see if it is going to be worth lowering the standard to bolster the trades. we know the down side that's why it's Only being done with 35. We are tracking them all the way through and if at anytime they don't meet the standard they are out or will get a chance to look at a trade they do meet the standard for. It could work it could not. We'll know in a year or so.

I know it sounds the same and probably is but those trades are so short something has to be done.

[stabmasterarson]

Thanks for the insight. I attempted to talk to the officer who is in charge of my file yesterday, but with the christmas holiday didn't get through. I guess I will wait until January and see what they say.

[stabmasterarson]

UPDATE:

I was able to speak to my career officer today, and I found out that the academics problem wasn't with my first 2 choices for trades, MAR ENG MECH and Hull tech, it was for my third choice, Naval weapons tech. I needed a grade 11 science that was "math based". I took earth science in grade 11, where I should have taken physics or chemistry or something else. My math was fine for all the trades, evidently.

But, as of right now none of this stuff matters, because the Mar eng mech trade filled up yesterday or something, for this year. I have to wait until April when the new numbers get released, and hopefully there's a spot for me. It gives me a chance to get my ducks in a row in the meanwhile, finish rehabbing my knee, get in shape, pay off debts, etc. All my other checks and clearances are finished, so time to hurry up and wait.

[Pat in Halifax]

I wasn't doubting you at all but found it quite amazing that the trade would turn anyone away so I just phoned my "little bird" in the Career Shop in Ottawa and lo and behold - there is a first for everything!!!! Based on what he told me, I suspect you will be called shortly after midnight on 1 April!!!!
Best of Luck.

[Retired FDO]

Not surprised your "little bird" told you what he did. As it stands right now there are less than 500 positions available in all occupations across the country. It's been a banner year for recruiting. Now if we can get the PATs trained we can actually get these people doing the job.