Author Topic: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?  (Read 18413 times)

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #100 on: May 15, 2010, 20:50:29 »
Nope- you've got it right.

Anyhoo- sorry about the tangent that I think I may have caused.

So- three quick things to fix the CF.  Discuss.

Offline Brasidas

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #101 on: May 19, 2010, 18:51:01 »
So- three quick things to fix the CF.  Discuss.

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2010, 16:11:26 »
Substitute Army.ca for CANFORGEN etc.
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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #103 on: August 10, 2010, 02:05:49 »
Greetings from a retired and completely civilian 'computer guy' in Edmonton.

The unification idea was pretty silly and I have seen nothing to suggest it saved much money.  It reminded me of a city saying that they were going to save money by having all the police, fire, and ambulence people wear the same uniforms, have the same kit, and drive the same vehicles.   No city would ever really do something that foolish.

Of course this problem can be easily solved by replacing all the military junk with a kind of combination flying jeep-tank-ship with invisibility.  [My nephew had a model of one of these when he was a kid.] Then unification would make some sense.

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #104 on: August 10, 2010, 02:17:35 »

The unification idea was pretty silly and I have seen nothing to suggest it saved much money.  It reminded me of a city saying that they were going to save money by having all the police, fire, and ambulence people wear the same uniforms, have the same kit, and drive the same vehicles.    No city would ever really do something that foolish.


Hmmmm interesting comment, but the CF wasn't that silly either. We ended at uniforms (& have since corrected that). We still have ships, planes, trucks etc etc ...
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #105 on: August 10, 2010, 07:07:09 »
I am always mildly amused that so many people seem to think that Unification was only about uniforms (and only the dress uniform at that).

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #106 on: August 10, 2010, 07:31:03 »
It reminded me of a city saying that they were going to save money by having all the police, fire, and ambulence people wear the same uniforms, have the same kit, and drive the same vehicles.   No city would ever really do something that foolish.
No, but some cities have gone to a unified emergency responce organization for fire and ambulance - still with different vehicles & the right tools for specific jobs, but within a unified force.


Offline Digger Hale

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #107 on: August 10, 2010, 07:41:52 »
I find this whole debate fascinating and I agree whole heartedly on the subject of separating "Services". My identity as a member of the Australian Army and Royal Australian Armoured Corps is hugely important to me.
There is great power, pride, history and tradition in a name. And I think those four things are some of the most important things for a soldier to have.

The issue of your PLQ is interesting too. Over here, each service trains its own people in what they need to know. The Air Force recruit training is infinately different to the Army Recruit training and the same obviously goes for Navy. The same then goes for your Junior Leaders courses.
We have a Chief of Defence Force (who's currently Air Force) and below him, the various service Chiefs. The system works and I would never want to see it changes as dramatically as was forced upon the Canadian forces.
When looking for a model why not look no further then the British Army or Australian Army? Our Army especially is quite similar to yours in size.
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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #108 on: August 10, 2010, 07:48:56 »
No, but some cities have gone to a unified emergency responce organization for fire and ambulance - still with different vehicles & the right tools for specific jobs, but within a unified force.
....and some have (for a little while, anyway, and unsuccessfully) had the police and fire services come under the command/admin of a single boss.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 07:57:06 by milnews.ca »
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #109 on: August 10, 2010, 07:49:22 »
When looking for a model why not look no further then the British Army or Australian Army? Our Army especially is quite similar to yours in size.

Isn't it rather silly to suggest the modern Australian Army as a model to follow in a thread about changes to the Canadian Department of National Defence and the three services of the Canadian Forces forty years ago?

Then again, perhaps not for those who haven't moved on and now deal with today's issues.

Offline Digger Hale

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #110 on: August 10, 2010, 08:10:11 »
My mistake, I should have written "Australian Defence Force". However, I dont think its silly at all to use our model or the British model if you were to look at changing your "Land Command".
 I dont think its too hard for you to join the dots and figure out what I meant.
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #111 on: August 10, 2010, 08:13:51 »
My mistake, I should have written "Australian Defence Force". However, I dont think its silly at all to use our model or the British model if you were to look at changing your "Land Command".
 I dont think its too hard for you to join the dots and figure out what I meant.

This is a thread about Unification, in trying to stay with one topic I wasn't looking to connect with random "dots." If we start talking in a different thread about reorganizing the CF today, please feel free to add your vote for us to follow your preferred model.

If you believe the "Australian Defence Force" of the 1960s was a valid model to copy at that time, then feel free to  offer all of your detailed reasons way that might have been a valid course of action.

But, according to Wikipedia (please correct any errors you see), in the 1960s, there was no "Australian Defence Force" - they had three separate services, which were "unified" in the 1970s:

Quote
The importance of 'joint' warfare  was made clear to the Australian Military during World War II when Australian naval, ground and air units frequently served as part of single commands. Following the war, several senior officers lobbied for the appointment of a commander in chief of the three services. The government rejected this proposal and the three services remained fully independent.[13]  The absence of a central authority resulted in poor coordination between the services with each service organising and operating on the basis of a different military doctrine.[14]

The need for an integrated command structured received more emphasis during the Australian military's experiences in the Vietnam War.[14] In 1973, the Secretary of the Department of Defence, Arthur Tange, submitted a report to the Government  that recommended the unification of the separate departments supporting each service into a single Department of Defence and the creation of the post of Chief of the Defence Force Staff. The government accepted these recommendations and the Australian Defence Force was established on 9 February 1976.[15]

Maybe the solution of the "Australian Defence Force" was copied from the Canadian example?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 08:22:28 by Michael O'Leary »

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #112 on: August 10, 2010, 09:02:03 »
This article appeared in the Australian Defence Force Journal. (Link is a pdf file of the journal issue.)

Task Force on Review of the Unification of the Canadian Forces

Published a few years after the Australian Defence Forces' own unification, they were no doubt very carefully looking at the areas of success or failure of the Canadian example. The article provides a detailed look at the criticisms of unification as seen at the time, but it is one-sided in that respect.

Offline Digger Hale

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #113 on: August 10, 2010, 09:46:30 »
I'm offer my apology. I must have misread the past 8 pages and misinterpreted every previous post. I thought there was definate suggestion about possible future changes but obviously I'm wrong.

Maybe the solution of the "Australian Defence Force" was copied from the Canadian example?
If it was then they took what the CF had done and ignored the vast majority of it. For a start, 40 years later theres no talk about the dramatic changes to the entire Defence structure that many of the people on this board are talking about.
The restructure of the ADF in the '70's following our experiances in Vietnam was a great success and has put our Army, RAN and RAAF in a good postion for the future.
I only hope that if the CF decided to carry out a restructuring that it is allowed the same success. But thats obviously for different threads.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #114 on: August 10, 2010, 10:09:50 »
There is nothing especially "right" or "wrong" with having a single, unified military force, viz the Canadian Forces. The problems come, or go away, when one tackles the internal structure: joint (unified) commands? 'single service' (sometimes called specified) commands? some mix of both?

I believe that it is a fact that men and women have some difficulty in 'seeing' themselves as members of a single, cohesive purple force; most are much more likely to self-identify as sailors, soldiers and so on. Thus, despite having a legally unified entity, the CF, we do well to recognize that we have, de facto, a Navy, an Army and an Air Force - each with its own customs and traditions and standards. Some members are required to move between services during their careers, most do so with relative ease, bringing the best of their 'parent' identity to each task; many members spend their entire career, save, perhaps for a tour or two in a HQ or recruiting centre, in one service or environment; and a few have real difficulties moving between environments. The top level organizations cannot, generally, help the few who have difficulty adapting but they can exacerbate the problems by emphasizing the differences between members rather than the things all members share.

The CF, per se, is not the problem; such problems as exist are organizational within the CF.
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #115 on: August 10, 2010, 12:04:10 »
There is nothing especially "right" or "wrong" with having a single, unified military force, viz the Canadian Forces. The problems come, or go away, when one tackles the internal structure: joint (unified) commands? 'single service' (sometimes called specified) commands? some mix of both?

I believe that it is a fact that men and women have some difficulty in 'seeing' themselves as members of a single, cohesive purple force; most are much more likely to self-identify as sailors, soldiers and so on. Thus, despite having a legally unified entity, the CF, we do well to recognize that we have, de facto, a Navy, an Army and an Air Force - each with its own customs and traditions and standards. Some members are required to move between services during their careers, most do so with relative ease, bringing the best of their 'parent' identity to each task; many members spend their entire career, save, perhaps for a tour or two in a HQ or recruiting centre, in one service or environment; and a few have real difficulties moving between environments. The top level organizations cannot, generally, help the few who have difficulty adapting but they can exacerbate the problems by emphasizing the differences between members rather than the things all members share.

The CF, per se, is not the problem; such problems as exist are organizational within the CF.

You know you hit nail on the head with this one. I personally am a Purple sailor (Sup Tech) and one of those types who has identified himself as a sailor, all stop. I think to solve this issues one of 2 things would need to happen:

1) Create a new and unique Tri-Service uniform for 3 element trades
or
2) Just simply do away with the Tri-service roles for 3 element trades

I know doing away with the Tri-service roles gets some people fired up, but we can continue to train jointly (I.E. CFSAL) and as for augmenters for a land deployment coming from non Army roles, it can be done. As we see now the NSE R9 is something in the neighborhood of 40-60% augmentees most coming from Air and Naval backgrounds with little to no "land" experience, and the job is still getting completed.

I think it is unreasonable to expect a sailor, soldier or airman not to develop a fierce allegiance to the environment they the serve when the walk, talk and act the same as the "hard Navy, Air, and Army" people they work for, with  and support. And I don't think this is something that afflicts Naval and Air personnel alone. In my year (and counting) with the NSE R9 so far I have met some very proud and fiercely Army personnel who have no interest or wish to go to Sea or to an Air Base, I applaud them in that as I think its good to draw an affiliation to your uniform, it builds pride and discipline.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #116 on: August 10, 2010, 12:49:38 »
2) Just simply do away with the Tri-service roles for 3 element trades
Some where earlier in this thread, someone might already have suggested creating sea sub-occupations for some of those purple trades that serve on ships (like cooks & Sup Tech). 
That would generally achieve what you suggest with "hard" Navy sub-occupations doing Navy career courses, while the remainder of the occupation (which live and work on the ground) would be trained to an Army standard (because if they ever find themselves in a fight, it will be on the ground).

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #117 on: August 10, 2010, 14:15:24 »
Even in the ear;y '60s, before we integrated and/or unified or whatever the 'exercise' really was, we had tri-service units and agencies - not just in HQ in Ottawa.

Some (a lot) of the purple organizations make good sense and we need good people in them. The trick is to serve, well, wherever one is needed, being proud of one's service and, always, doing the best job possible. I think it is, as I said, a matter of getting the organization right and of convincing every member that they are a valuable and valued part of the team - their service team and the bigger, CF team, too.

I know that sounds like a warm, fuzzy platitude but, after 35+ years of service, I believe it is true.

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #118 on: August 12, 2010, 02:48:50 »
Hmmmm interesting comment, but the CF wasn't that silly either. We ended at uniforms (& have since corrected that). We still have ships, planes, trucks etc etc ...

It was the government that was silly they have always saved a penny and then wasted $5.  It was sill to try to save money on defence since the military has always been frugal.  It is not really possible to save much money without doing some kind of harm.  It is also far easier to justify spending taxpayers' money for things they understand like Army, Navy, and Air Force.  Many civilians think that there is just the Army now and funding should be minimal.  Some people do not understand why Army guys even want aircraft or ships and they already have tanks so they don't need any of those. 

Military funding debates have always reminded me of when I used to work as a computer guy and tried to explain the threat from viruses.  At the time there were 130k known viruses and X unknown viruses and the best security software could deal with 90% of the known viruses.  This meant that there was still a threat from 13k known viruses and most of X unknown viruses.  You would not believe how many bureaucratic types demanded to know exactly how may unknown viruses there were.  They did not even understand how stupid the question was. 

It is the same thing for defence.  No one can know in advance exactly how many future threats there will be but there will not likely be much time to mobilize to meet them.  That means having an adequate force trained and in place to deal with whatever comes up.  Methinks for Canada that could be as little as 100k soldiers providing they have the best affordable equipment but, sadly, I don't think this will happen any time soon.

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #119 on: August 12, 2010, 06:40:44 »
It was the government that was silly they have always saved a penny and then wasted $5.  It was sill to try to save money on defence since the military has always been frugal.  It is not really possible to save much money without doing some kind of harm.  It is also far easier to justify spending taxpayers' money for things they understand like Army, Navy, and Air Force.  Many civilians think that there is just the Army now and funding should be minimal.  Some people do not understand why Army guys even want aircraft or ships and they already have tanks so they don't need any of those. 

Military funding debates have always reminded me of when I used to work as a computer guy and tried to explain the threat from viruses.  At the time there were 130k known viruses and X unknown viruses and the best security software could deal with 90% of the known viruses.  This meant that there was still a threat from 13k known viruses and most of X unknown viruses.  You would not believe how many bureaucratic types demanded to know exactly how may unknown viruses there were.  They did not even understand how stupid the question was. 

It is the same thing for defence.  No one can know in advance exactly how many future threats there will be but there will not likely be much time to mobilize to meet them.  That means having an adequate force trained and in place to deal with whatever comes up.  Methinks for Canada that could be as little as 100k soldiers providing they have the best affordable equipment but, sadly, I don't think this will happen any time soon.
You are trying to defend your previous outlandish statement with this wildly off-topic post?

Offline pbi

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #120 on: August 12, 2010, 07:35:45 »
Quote
I know doing away with the Tri-service roles gets some people fired up, but we can continue to train jointly (I.E. CFSAL) and as for augmenters for a land deployment coming from non Army roles, it can be done. ...I think it is unreasonable to expect a sailor, soldier or airman not to develop a fierce allegiance to the environment they the serve when the walk, talk and act the same as the "hard Navy, Air, and Army" people they work for, with  and support. And I don't think this is something that afflicts Naval and Air personnel alone. In my year (and counting) with the NSE R9 so far I have met some very proud and fiercely Army personnel who have no interest or wish to go to Sea or to an Air Base, I applaud them in that as I think its good to draw an affiliation to your uniform, it builds pride and discipline.

I agree 100% with this. What (IMHO) we need is a true concept of "jointness", that lets each service bring its strengths to the game, but doesn't ***** about with the culture, traditions, training or force generation business of each of them. The USMC provides a very good example of this with their medical services: the "Corpsman" in a Marine unit is a sailor. This has worked fine for generations, with nobody trying to bastardize anything. This (again, IMHO) was what we should have aimed at in the first place, not the dog's breakfast we got, as a result of which countless wheels were spun, energy wasted, and good people left the Forces in disgust. "Purple" is fine, as long as it's a temporary colour created by specific operational needs, from the palette of brown, light blue, and dark blue.

Cheers
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #121 on: August 12, 2010, 07:46:52 »
I agree 100% with this. What (IMHO) we need is a true concept of "jointness", that lets each service bring its strengths to the game, but doesn't ***** about with the culture, traditions, training or force generation business of each of them. The USMC provides a very good example of this with their medical services: the "Corpsman" in a Marine unit is a sailor. This has worked fine for generations, with nobody trying to bastardize anything. This (again, IMHO) was what we should have aimed at in the first place, not the dog's breakfast we got, as a result of which countless wheels were spun, energy wasted, and good people left the Forces in disgust. "Purple" is fine, as long as it's a temporary colour created by specific operational needs, from the palette of brown, light blue, and dark blue.

Cheers

If I may, we already see some of this within the Army on a less grander scale.  Look at the Cbt Arms.  Members of the Cbt Arms are just as fiercely proud of their Trade that they will not change to another.  Still they are also very good team members when it comes to actually fighting with the other Arms as part of a Cbt Team.   

The people I have worked with from the Purple Trades, as fiercely proud of their Trade they may be, have never failed to be Team players in supporting their Cbt Arms brethren.

Are we creating a tempest in a tea pot?
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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #122 on: August 12, 2010, 09:04:55 »
Quote
Are we creating a tempest in a tea pot?
Yes, to a certain degree. (But then, if one casts even a cursory look across these pages, one can probably see many tempestuous tea pots...)

I'm an unrepentant Unification-hater. I will never agree with it, or sympathize (much) with the rationalizations used to justify it. That said, I would be dishonest if I didn't admit that natural institutional evolution has done much to heal many of the wounds. I can very clearly remember when it was not permitted to use the proper noun "Army" in any official correspondence: we've come a long way since then. In many ways I think we are approaching just about the best place we could be, barring the De-Unification of the Forces. And that, I have to admit, is a very unlikely development and potentially just as disruptive as Unification was. That is why, as much as I believe in strong and vibrant unique-service cultures, I don't have much time for ideas like scrapping the current rank badge system in favour of bringing back the old pre-Unification system.

Cheers
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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #123 on: August 12, 2010, 15:30:10 »
You are trying to defend your previous outlandish statement with this wildly off-topic post?

Sorry about that but I was really talking about unification.  It was supposed to save money but we never found out if it did.  It should have been a simple matter to have an accountant determine how much was saved.  It could not have been much since the military was already a pretty frugal organization.  If the government wants to save money then they should look at things like ending subsidies to replace cheap disposable incandescent bulbs with expensive disposible fluorescent ones that contain mercury.  There is plenty of fat to trim in Ottawa but there has never been very much of it in the military.  This unification did little to improve Canada's abiltiy to deal with future threats.  It just seems like change for the sake of change to me.

Unification also creates the illusion that the military can operate with far less money.  This makes cutting budgets much easier politically because most voters think it will do little harm.  They believe that most cost reductions will come from improvements in efficiency granted by things like unification.  The idea is if we paint everything the same colour then we can get the paint wholesale sort of thing.

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Re: Unification is a child of the 1960s, so who is looking backward?
« Reply #124 on: August 24, 2010, 12:55:16 »
Unification (I have to wash my mouth after saying those words) was a basterized dream thought up by Paul Hellyer due to a couple of reasons:
1. His experience during WWII where he was forced out of the RCAF and forced into the Army.
2. His desire to become the PM of Canada and he needed something to create a big splash to counteract the first inklings of Trudeaumainia that would later sweep the nation.

I feel his biggest mistake was thinking that the USMC (his supposed model) was the be all end all of a unified force. People still make that mistake.  What he should have used was any Navy that has marines or naval infantry . The Navy/Marine team gives you the flexiblilty, commonality and tradition that would have made unification a lot simpler and less tramautic than the model Hellyer foisted upon us. It wasn't embraced then and we have spent the last 30 plus years unembracing it since.

Disclaimer - These opinions come from a person with a definite Navy bias.