Topic: MARS III Failure Rate

[ekpiper]

Good Day,

I had heard previously on here that MARS III was a very difficult trade, with a high failure rate.  While at RMC for Recruit Camp, it was mentioned many times that the fail rate was 72%.  I am now very curious about what aspects of the course are so hard as to cause such a high failure rate?  I was told rumours that it was MARS Os stabbing each other in the back, but I don't think that it could be THAT bad.  Does anyone have any insight?

[FSTO]

MARS III and IV are demanding courses but you must be willing to listen, work hard and be a team player to get through it. Here are a couple of tips that may assist you getting through these courses:

Spatial awareness - I have found that many students have no clue how to marry up what they see on a chart to what they see from the bridge. If you can, get charts of the West Coast Gulf Islands speccifically 3440, 3424, 3441, 3442, 3443,  3478, 3477, 3479. There are a few others but go here to get a general look at the area http://www.charts.gc.ca/charts-cartes/paper-papier/pdf/pacific-index.pdf. Go over these charts and see where the ferry routes are, calling in points, points of land, traffic lanes, names of islands, passages and coastal towns. This knowledge will give you a leg up when you are navigating or as Officer of the Watch (OOW).

Teamwork on the Bridge: If you are the navigator or OOW you are a TEAM. You help each other to have a successful watch or passage; the OOW assisting the Navigator in identifying lead marks, points of land etc and the navigator pointing out areas of safe water in case of a Man overboard (MOB).

Ability to deviate from the plan: Officer in Charge (OIC) of the ORCA's love to go see things that interest them. Eventhough you will spend hrs doing your passage planning all is not lost if for some reason you have to go away from your planned route. Realize that it is a big body of water out there and if the OIC orders the ship onto a wild goose chase, remember where you planned destination is and give the OIC a recommendation of of course to steer and time to regain track.

Radian Rule: 1 degree off your lead mark at 1 mile is 33 yds off track - thus 1 degree at 3 miles is 100yds off track (port or starboard). Remember these simple numbers and you'll be a rock star.

Terminology - Nothing ticks off your Course Training Officers (CTO) and OICs more than calling a chart a map, down below - downstairs, a ladder a stair, a deck a floor, a bulkhead a wall. Fore, aft, port, Stbd know these terms and use them. You have chosen to become a professional Naval Officer therefore you must learn the language or you will look like a fool in front of more senior Officers and NCMs. Worse you will not gain any credibility with them.

Finally when on the Bridge and you faced with a situation; MAKE A DECISION! It may be the wrong decision and the OIC or CTO will correct you but there is nothing more pathetic then an Acting Subbie grippping the pelorous with their mouth wide open and a vacant look in their eyes unable to decide to alter course 15 degrees to stbd to avoid a vessel crossing ahead of you.

Hope this helps and good luck at Venture! 

[yoman]

Good Day,

I had heard previously on here that MARS III was a very difficult trade, with a high failure rate.  While at RMC for Recruit Camp, it was mentioned many times that the fail rate was 72%.  I am now very curious about what aspects of the course are so hard as to cause such a high failure rate?  I was told rumours that it was MARS Os stabbing each other in the back, but I don't think that it could be THAT bad.  Does anyone have any insight?

In addition to what was said above, I have been told that a lot of the candidates are not ready for the academic workload put on them during MARS training. I also met quite a few people redoing MARS III so if you fail it the first time its not like your toast. Then again, don't assume you'll be given a second shot at it...

[Lex Parsimoniae]

the fail rate was 72%.

That's a bit exaggerated   Don't sweat failure rates - there is no quota and NOTC is under a lot of pressure to produce graduates not failures so they will assist you as much as needed.

[captloadie]

I think you also have to check whether they "failure rate" include people who voluntarily withdraw, or heaven forbid, intentionally pooch the course to get off it. Of all the MARS officers that were in my year at RMC, at least half decided it wasn't for them during/after Phase 3, and probably half of those again released after their 5 years mandatory service was over. 

[Pusser]

The failure rate on my course for MARS III through MARS IV was about 75%, but that was considered an anomaly.  A more common rate (at that time anyway) was about 50%.  However, even that included a lot of people who just weren't cut out for it.  Of all the things I've done in my life, I have to say without a doubt that MARS training was the toughest thing I've ever done.  My best advice is for you to realize that technical knowledge is only part of it.  Your ability to function in a crisis environment is by far the most important thing.  You must be decisive and mentally tough.  It's also important not to take the criticism personally.

[ekpiper]

Well, thank you to all for your insight.  I will keep all of this advice in mind, and hopefully apply it successfully!

ekpiper

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Ekpiper:

There is a French (form France) song that goes "C'est pas l'homme qui prends la mer, c'est la mer qui prends l'homme..."

I.e. A man does not become a sailor, the sea "grabs" him .. forever.

You will probably discover quickly that this is true. If it is in you, if the sea gets to you and there is something about it that calls you back, the comradeship of your fellow seaman,  the moon in an otherwise totally dark night, a storm on the horizon in a perfectly  still day, that draws you back to the sea while everyone else in your course shies away. If it is in you, you will know, otherwise go back to shore. That is in great part why 50 to 75% of people fail or leave before their original compulsory service period expires.

But if it is for you , you will know greater love than you ever experienced before (after 25 years, I had to chose between the sea and my wife and two lovely boys - it was the most wrenching choice I ever had to make. (And while my boys will disagree, I am not sure I made the right choice, and only being buried at sea will reconcile me with my vocation).

[Lumber]

I was told rumours that it was MARS Os stabbing each other in the back, but I don't think that it could be THAT bad.

This is something that is still floating around, but has no basis in truth whatsoever. I spent time getting to know the officers of three different ships, as having spent a total of 6 months so far at NOTC Venture, and I have never once seen even an inkling of this type of behaviour. It's all about teamwork.

As for the difficulty of the Academic portion of the course? I'd say a third of my course found it to be a joke, another third found it challenging, but not overbearing, and the other third were in the classroom studying on weekends and still only scrapping by on the exams.

2 of the 4 subjects of the academic phase are almost completely math based, and IMO, those with degrees that required math (Economics, Business, and all science/engineering) had a much easier time then those with degrees in, for example, psyche or history. This isn't an insult to the intelligence of those people, nor is it a cheap shot at their degrees. All I'm saying is that math is just not as familiar to them, and they therefore had a much steeper learning curve.

[Pusser]

This is something that is still floating around, but has no basis in truth whatsoever. I spent time getting to know the officers of three different ships, as having spent a total of 6 months so far at NOTC Venture, and I have never once seen even an inkling of this type of behaviour. It's all about teamwork.

As for the difficulty of the Academic portion of the course? I'd say a third of my course found it to be a joke, another third found it challenging, but not overbearing, and the other third were in the classroom studying on weekends and still only scrapping by on the exams.

2 of the 4 subjects of the academic phase are almost completely math based, and IMO, those with degrees that required math (Economics, Business, and all science/engineering) had a much easier time then those with degrees in, for example, psyche or history. This isn't an insult to the intelligence of those people, nor is it a cheap shot at their degrees. All I'm saying is that math is just not as familiar to them, and they therefore had a much steeper learning curve.

I think things have changed a good deal in the last 20 years.  What they now do with trainers and software, we used to do with actual ships and there is a good deal of difference between running a "trainer" aground or into another computerized "ship" and running a real destroyer aground or into another real destroyer.   Everybody's a lot more calm now because mistakes don't have the same consequences, at least not in the early stages.  By the time you get to do it with a real ship, you've simulated it enough times to have a much better idea of how everything comes together.  Electronic fixing aids have made everything easier as well.  One can only assume that the backstabbing that went with the stress has been reduced as the stress has been reduced.

However, I should point out that "backstabbing" is actually a poor description of the way it was.  We were all still friends and only rarely did anyone ever intentionally screw a classmate, but by the same token, no would take a fall for another's mistakes.  If somebody was screwing up, the others would most likely just distance themselves from the guy we saw going down.

[Lex Parsimoniae]

I was told rumours that it was MARS Os stabbing each other in the back, but I don't think that it could be THAT bad.  Does anyone have any insight?

Myth.

[Pusser]

Myth.

Not entirely.  It could be brutal.  However, what is/was myth is that MARS officers are the worst. 

I remember being at a Log Officer gathering and someone made a comment about backstabbing and the crowd said, no that doesn't happen here.  We're not MARS officers!  I thought to myself, no we're not.  We're worse.  The backstabbing is much more insidious.  In the MARS world, at least you know who your friends are - they don't twist the knife after they've plunged it between your shoulder blades.

[jewalsh]

Just remember Compass to True = Cadet = Add East subtract west.

But in my opinion. I want to see high failure rates in Officer training. The CF should only allow the best of the best to become officers. Any type of Officer training should be very intense since they are the leaders during Wartime.