Topic: Remembering 9/11 by burning the Qur'an.... Wait, WHAT?!

[hold_fast]

Messages of hate are a touchy area as far as freedom goes. Sure, I can punch holes in my wall and break my TV if I so feel, it's not hurting anyone but myself. But this is a completely different kind of destruction. To do something as dumb as this only lowers us to the level of people who trample and burn burn American and Canadian flags as well as effigies, chanting something along the lines of "Death to the West". Sure, those flags and effigies are "their property". Still doesn't make drumming up messages of hate the right thing to do, does it?

If we want "them" to adopt our systems and freedoms, we have to show that our systems and freedoms are, in fact, better than the ones they already have in place. Crap like this and the WBC have no place in our society, only only prove that our "system" needs some tweaking.

I am not debating the morality of burning the Qur'an. It is also entirely legal for individuals to burn American or Canadian flags.

What is right and what is wrong? Morality is subjective, and I will not get into a debate about whether burning a 'sacred text' is right or wrong. Nor will I discuss whether Jones' actions are "drumming up messages of hate". We should not censor our freedoms to make democracy appear more attractive. The freedom of a democratic nation is how it is - you will not always like what everyone has to say or do. You have the right to voice your opinions as to the opposite. You have the right to start burning bibles in protest of Jones' burning Qur'ans.

Jones is a moron, I don't debate that fact. It does not change the fact that his freedom to burn a book remains.
I will not budge on the idea that we must protect the freedom to destroy and vandalize symbols, even if in this case that freedom is being used by an idiot who is seizing opportunities for publicity and acting in total ignorance.

If the moral majority didn't like what he had to say or planned to do, then the media shouldn't have engaged in his bottomfeeder methods of publicity.

[Petamocto]

... It is also entirely legal for individuals to burn American or Canadian flags.

There are however all sorts of first-world countries who make it illegal to varying degrees, such as Denmark, France, Japan, etc.

[ObedientiaZelum]

To do something as dumb as this only lowers us to the level of people who trample and burn burn American and Canadian flags as well as effigies, chanting something along the lines of "Death to the West". Sure, those flags and effigies are "their property". Still doesn't make drumming up messages of hate the right thing to do, does it?

So a citizen burning a book, which is entirely in his legal right to do so, lowers ALL of us to the same level?

Do you think a Muslim committing a terrorist act lowers ALL Muslims to that same level?

If we want "them" to adopt our systems and freedoms, we have to show that our systems and freedoms are, in fact, better than the ones they already have in place. Crap like this and the WBC have no place in our society, only only prove that our "system" needs some tweaking.

We shouldn't care if they want to adopt our system and freedoms, it's when they try and take ours away from us when it becomes an issue.  We don't have to show anyone our system is better. We know it is, they can accept it or not.
What has no place in our society are religions that promote violence and use the threat of violence as co-hersion.  "You better not do this that or the other thing or we'll loose our crap and start killing people".

[PuckChaser]

Apparently Reverend Terry has called off his Biblical BBQ.  Shared with the usual disclaimer.

He got his national publicity, donations and probably boosted his book sales. Mission accomplished, why go through with it?

[Brad Sallows]

>Crap like this and the WBC have no place in our society

If by WBC you mean the Westboro mob, then you are pointing to a very small number of people - by using an extremely discriminating filter with respect to the ideologies for which they stand.  If we widen the arc of view to consider all the other groups who stage desecrations of symbols as part of their protests and statements and conduct themselves poorly in various ways - without respect to their politicial or religious stances - we find a number several orders of magnitude larger.  That brush is going to strike too, too many people and suppress much more freedom than it ever gives the illusion of creating.

If the point of our freedoms isn't to allow the most mean-spirited among us to go about their troubled lives in whichever ways they choose, our freedoms aren't really exceptional.

[Petamocto]

I am happy to see Obama and Harper both going public to condemn him though.

I am sure there is an Info Ops campaign going on in theatre for how to mitigate it, possibly stating that we also condemn it and are just as offended.  Can't say for sure because I have been out of that chair for a year.

If nothing else, I am also happy to see that we have learned from our lessons in the past.  What we did in WW2 to Japanese Canadians was only marginally better than what the Germans did to Jewish people so we didn't have the moral high ground to claim.  No we didn't exterminate them all, but we still rounded them all up and put them in camps.

Although I do get the feeling that there is still a minority who would prefer that we do that to Muslims today, the majority of Canadians would not tolerate it.

[milnews.ca]

I am sure there is an Info Ops campaign going on in theatre for how to mitigate it, possibly stating that we also condemn it and are just as offended.  Can't say for sure because I have been out of that chair for a year.

You KNOW the Taliban had to take a crack from their side (screen capture of statement attached as PDF)....

US invaders martyr 8 civilians as they protest burning of Holy Quran
Saturday, 11 September 2010 19:50 Zabihullah Mujahid

FARAH, Sep. 11 – US invaders shot and martyred 8 civilians protesting against the inhumane act of bringing Holy Quran by the US church in Florida, while protesters in Kabul city burned to government vehicles in protesting against Quran.

Alleged civilian casualties + Alleged outrage committed by puppets/infidels/terrorists/colonialists = Touchstones for a typical Taliban statement

And if there's one statement on the English web page, I'm guessing the Taliban Info-machine's spreading the word all sorts of other ways as well.

[recceguy]

If nothing else, I am also happy to see that we have learned from our lessons in the past.  What we did in WW2 to Japanese Canadians was only marginally better than what the Germans did to Jewish people so we didn't have the moral high ground to claim.  No we didn't exterminate them all, but we still rounded them all up and put them in camps.

I've tried to stay clear of engaging some of your thoughts here, so as not to appear biased. I'll even commend you for the massive strides you attempt to be making in correcting your previous history. However, I see that every once in awhile you still hit the send button without proofreading or subjectively editing your own posts. This is a classic example.

It is also one of the most assinine and offensive statements I've read on these boards in quite some time.

Now that's only my opinion, and I'm not going to try discuss with you why. Let's just say I have way more on my side than you on yours. You're just going to have to reflect and figure it out for yourself, but if your lines between right and wrong are so minuscule that you figure what we did is only marginally above what they did I can understand why you have such a hard time relating to regular people and why your priorities are so skewed.

edit for spelling

[mariomike]

What we did in WW2 to Japanese Canadians was only marginally better than what the Germans did to Jewish people so we didn't have the moral high ground to claim. 

Canada did not starve millions of people to death, did not force their inmates to work under brutal conditions, and did not send them to gas chambers if they were "unfit" to work.

[Infanteer]

What we did in WW2 to Japanese Canadians was only marginally better than what the Germans did to Jewish people so we didn't have the moral high ground to claim.  No we didn't exterminate them all, but we still rounded them all up and put them in camps.

Huh?

You have quite a grasp on history if you are unable to differentiate between an internment camp and a death camp....

[Old Sweat]

I am going to refrain from joining to the mass dump-on, other than to say I am disappointed that the maturity and discernment you had been displaying went all to sh.t. I don't understand why you continually seem to have this urge to stick your thingee in a food processor set on puree.

[Baden Guy]

Continuing to refrain from making an *** of myself with some blurted out response.
Dam !

[57Chevy]

Two Afghan protesters killed as Qur'an tensions simmer

Word of the intention to burn the Qu’ran had already triggered outrage in Afghanistan and across the Muslim world.

President Barack Obama warned it could hurt the United States deeply abroad, endanger U.S. troops in Afghanistan and risk attacks in U.S. and European cities.
"DEATH TO AMERICA"
In Afghanistan, angry protesters chanting "Death to America" and "Death to Christians" before clashing with security forces in Logar, south of the capital.

The protesters threatened to attack foreign military bases. There are almost 150,000 foreign troops fighting a growing Taliban-led insurgency in Afghanistan, where violence is at its worst since the hardline Islamists were ousted.

"The governor must give us an assurance that the church is not going to burn the Qu’ran, otherwise we will attack foreign troop bases in our thousands," protester Mohammad Yahya said

article continues:  Qur'an tensions
                    (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)

 

[Petamocto]

The Germans made mass decisions based on race and not individual guilt/innocence, and so did we.  If you want to call me immature, ignorant of history, or even retarded because I pointed that out, then that's quite alright.  I stated there was a difference because we did not kill them all, but we still violated individual human rights because of race.

There were three decisions made:
1. Do we think all people are guilty because they are the same race?
2. Do we contain them all just to be safe?
3. Do we kill them all just to be really safe?

We made 2/3 of the same decisions the Germans did.  Granted the last one is the "biggy", but it hardly puts us in a position to point fingers and act high and mighty because we "only" rounded up thousands of innocent people based on their race and it's a bit hypocritical.

As per the purpose of my original post, if people did not have the courage to stand up and admit that what we did was horribly wrong we would probably be rounding up Muslims right now and putting them in camps.

[PuckChaser]

I think you make a pretty good point once explained, but some people have an axe to grind against you and the direct Holocaust comparison was just fuel to the fire.

Back towards the original topic: Its really sad to see what just a threat of a Koran burning has done to help the Taliban IO campaign. We've just lost a whole lot of credibility, and our troops have done absolutely nothing to deserve it. Going to be a long, uphill battle to convince the general populace that nothing did happen, nor would we ever allow it to happen.

[Infanteer]

We made 2/3 of the same decisions the Germans did.  Granted the last one is the "biggy", but it hardly puts us in a position to point fingers and act high and mighty because we "only" rounded up thousands of innocent people based on their race and it's a bit hypocritical.

I see - genocide is a "biggy"; I guess we can leave that minor detail out so the your idea of moral equivalency holds water.  I don't, as the above poster mentioned, have any bone to pick with you but you do realize how ridiculous your flimsy comparison is sounding?

[Technoviking]

The Germans made mass decisions based on race and not individual guilt/innocence, and so did we.  If you want to call me immature, ignorant of history, or even retarded because I pointed that out, then that's quite alright.  I stated there was a difference because we did not kill them all.

There were three decisions made:
1. Do we think all people are guilty because they are the same race?
2. Do we contain them all just to be safe?
3. Do we kill them all just to be really safe?

We made 2/3 of the same decisions the Germans did.  Granted the last one is the "biggy", but it hardly puts us in a position to point fingers and act high and mighty because we "only" rounded up thousands of innocent people based on their race and it's a bit hypocritical.

As per the purpose of my original post, if people did not have the courage to stand up and admit that what we did was horribly wrong we would probably be rounding up Muslims right now and putting them in camps.

Superficially the two "things" appear quite similar; however, you fail.

In Europe, anti-semitism was rampant, and there was no good reason for it.  "They" were just Jews, they owned all the businesses, they were in league with the Bolshevists, etc.  All that garbage.  It went from outright persecution and went from there.

For us, in late November 1941, Japanese Canadians were just another group of immigrants, along with the Chinese, Ukrainians and others.  Then, waking up on 8 December, Japan was suddenly an enemy, and looking around, we "realised" that there were hundreds (thousands?) of "enemy aliens" in Canada.  Having citizenship of Japan, they were citizens of an enemy state.  Yes, hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but we felt that these enemy aliens (along with Germans and Italians) had to be watched, whatever. 

So, question one: we didn't consider them guilty or innocent.  They were citizens of an enemy nation, ergo, they were the enemy.
Question 2: the Germans didn't lock up the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, etc, because they wanted to be safe.
Question 3: they didn't kill them to be safe.
So, none of the questions apply.  The apologists of history will want us to believe that we mistreated the "yellow" people, dropping the bomb on them and all, just because we are mean white people.  Yet "they" forget that we firebombed our cousins by the millions, because they were the enemy in a full-up and declared war. 
Were we right to do what we did?  Sure.  So, it's not hypocritical at all, because the situations were completely different.  We didn't make even 1/3 of the same decisions as the Germans.  What we did wasn't horribly wrong, or even midly wrong.  Given the same circumstances and some knowledge, I would advocate doing the same.  And given that the people who attacked us way back in 2001 were from a variety of nations, it is a false premise to assume that I would advocate rounding up Muslims.  I do advocate the use of nuclear weapons on known insurgent areas, but that's just me.  (And probably a good reason why I'm not the guy in charge of putting my finger on the button).

But I refuse to consider what we (as Canadians) did as wrong, given that Canada was at war with Japan, a formal war, and we took enemy aliens and interned them: we had no other choice. 

[Journeyman]

I think you make a pretty good point once explained......

I think TecViking used too many big words for this discussion. Let me try.

Using the Petamocto Logic Construct: *
There were three decisions made:
1. Do we carry weapons in Afghanistan?
2. Do we capture those who are not on our side?
3. Do we slice their throats and throw acid into the faces of their daughters?

Two out of three ain't bad.

If you agree with the Nazi/Canada argument, logically, you must also believe that we're pretty much the same as the Taliban.


* Not copyrighted, because no rational person would use it; you're welcome to it

[PuckChaser]

Maybe I didn't explain enough.... comparing our actions to the Germans/Nazis is overboard, but that doesn't diminish the fact that we interned people strictly based on race. Not as bad as Nazis, but definitely bad and I hope we're past that point in our socio-economic evolution so it never happens again in this country.

[Petamocto]

Ahhh, my good friend Journeyman.  Living up to your reputation of waiting for others to disagree with me before adding on.

Techno,

Your core argument is flawed.  22,000 Japanese Canadians were interred.  14,000 of them were born in Canada.

On February 24, 1942 an Order-in-Council passed under the War Measures Act gave the Federal Government the power to intern all "persons of Japanese racial origin."

As per PuckChaser's comments, we have all made our positions known and we're all too stubborn to change our opinions on this matter so let's be mature enough to move on.

[Technoviking]

Maybe I didn't explain enough.... comparing our actions to the Germans/Nazis is overboard, but that doesn't diminish the fact that we interned people strictly based on race. Not as bad as Nazis, but definitely bad and I hope we're past that point in our socio-economic evolution so it never happens again in this country.

Based on nationality, actually.  An enemy nation.  And we also interred Germans and Italians.  We also interred others who were deemed to be a danger to the security of the state, such as fascists.  So, it wasn't like one day we suddenly said "we don't like them japs, let's lock 'em up with them krauts and wops!". 

[57Chevy]

Back towards the original topic: Its really sad to see what just a threat of a Koran burning has done to help the Taliban IO campaign. We've just lost a whole lot of credibility, and our troops have done absolutely nothing to deserve it. Going to be a long, uphill battle to convince the general populace that nothing did happen, nor would we ever allow it to happen.

Well said.
I don't think that one individual like Rev Bookburning should be allowed to stir up such an international commotion
as he has already done.
It just seems totally against the idea of homeland security, and puts many peoples lives in danger.
What was he thinking ?   He should be arrested for outright ignorance and stupidity. My

Petamocto........You cannot even compare the two. May I suggest you read up on german concentration camps.
                         Pick one.........and I don't think it matters which one.

[ObedientiaZelum]

Back towards the original topic: Its really sad to see what just a threat of a Koran burning has done to help the Taliban IO campaign. We've just lost a whole lot of credibility, and our troops have done absolutely nothing to deserve it. Going to be a long, uphill battle to convince the general populace that nothing did happen, nor would we ever allow it to happen.

You'll never convince the general population of that. They're too hard wired.   It doesn't matter what we do, the automatic reaction is
Protests
Outrage
We're going to do violence!
DEATH TO THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM.

They know everyone else wants peace and use it as a threat everytime. Give it a few months, something else will come up and it'll be the same thing.
That upsets us! We're going to protest, we're outraged we're going to cause violence! 

My ex does the same thing. I have a great little girl and anytime my ex is upset over something real or trivial OUT come the big guns. I'm not going to let you see your daughter. Deep down I know she can't but I don't like the drama or headache so I give in everytime because I just want to see my daughter. She knows that and knows the threats work so why stop. I cancel picking my daughter up for the day because I have Pneumonia and I'm a bad parent ignoring my daughter and she might rethink the visiting arrangements blah blah blah.   

These guys are the same way. They know that anytime they feel like getting upset over something they just rattle their sabres and the west falls over itself trying to appease them. When does it stop?  When they don't want us to vote anymore and threaten to start riots if a certain political party is allowed to be voted for?

Sorry for going off on a rant. I'm just saying nothing we do will work. Their going to use the same threats over anything they feel like.  The members of Islam who have their heads screwed on straight already understand peace and tolerance.  For the hundreds of thousands of others that don't there's just no changing their mind. Death to those who insult Islam.

[Petamocto]

But when we say "they" (their general population), are we potentially not just talking about a small percentage of them who are protesting?

They see media coverage of a small percentage of us burning Qurans and assume it's all of us, and we see a small percentage of them protesting and chanting death to anyone who insults Islam, and before you know it it's their 1 billion vs our 1 billion.

[Technoviking]

They're going to use the same threats over anything they feel like.

Very good point.  No matter the catalyst, there are those who will incite voilence using anything as an excuse, I suppose.  But, in the end, all we have to do is train up the ANA and ANP, etc, such that they are at least functionally retarded, and then leave.  But I would also hang a Sword of Damocles over their heads as a nation, if I were in charge.  But I'm not. And I'm not even running for office, so, that point of mine is moot.