Topic: Allegations of JTF2 wrongdoing in Afghanistan.

[Sapplicant]

Here we go again. 









title tweak

[PuckChaser]

Sounds like a mountain out of a molehill. Nothing criminal was found in the original Sand Trap, however they found irregularities which will always come up when you take a microscope to something. I'm willing to bet the media is going to feed off this for a while, forcing the CF to release the results to Sand Trap II without an AIA request. The BN supplied by CBC is redacted enough that they have no idea what is being investigated, only that it was in a BN specifically about detainees.

[Brihard]

Given that we operate overseas in pursuit of the national interest, and on behalf of - and representing - all Canadians, I think it's wholly appropriate that we be subject to such oversight as is necessary to make sure the average reasonable citizen of our country is assured that we're faithfully doing what is expected of us, and adhering the values to which we as a nation subscribe.

Yeah, it can make things awkward as hell and difficult, and it puts some constraints on us when we're forced to 'play nice', but we're an army serving a free state. I'd rather we be constrained by an open public discourse on our actions and behaviour if it means that we keep ourselves honest and in line.

I don't expect this to be a popular opinion around here, but hell, nothing new there. If nothing else, erring on the side of caution allows us at the end of the day to say, "See? We did nothing wrong." with no substantive doubt remaining for silly notions to be built upon.

[Container]

Brihard,

Do you really think that when an investigation is completed and clears criminal wrongdoing- and then several ATIP requests later the media gets to play havoc with the details for the sake of sensational press it creates well informed Canadians with their minds at ease? (of course that is personal opinion!)

Retractions go in the backpages. By the time the media says "my bad" the damage has been done.

I respect your opinion, and when it comes to honesty and transparency I agree- but where I disagree is that the motivations of this story is good old fashioned informative reporting. The story I read in CBC didnt even really seem sure what it was supposed to be reporting. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

I suppose we shall see!

The bottom of the CBC article goes out of its way to make sure that its understood that JTF-2 was taking tactical direction from "the Americans". Its just tripe as far as I read.....

[milnews.ca]

I'm willing to bet the media is going to feed off this for a while ....

Among others:

Liberal House Leader David McGuinty says he is extremely troubled by news that the Canadian military is investigating the actions of its elite special forces in Afghanistan.

"This is a really serious matter, and I think it really underscores what we’ve been saying for some time — that there’s more here than meets the eye," McGuinty told reporters Tuesday in Ottawa.

(....)

"If these allegations prove true, my understanding is that this investigation was occurring at a time when our own minister of national defence [Peter MacKay] was being asked repeatedly for any knowledge that he might have had about allegations of torture or ongoing investigations," McGuinty said.

"It’s particularly worrisome for me that this whole matter was broken apparently or revealed by a JTF2 member who obviously felt, I guess, according to reports, enough responsibility or enough seriousness around this that they came forward and broke ranks, so to speak," he added.

(...)

[PuckChaser]

Oh great, now the Liberals have a martyr in this unknown SF soldier as the great whistleblower in CANSOFCOM. Obviously the fact that this person's allegations have gone after almost 2 years of investigation without charges being laid has completely skipped over their heads.

[greentoblue]

Ah Scott Taylor showing how modern journalism really works.  Without any evidence he decides that the best course is to follow Jean Chretien's dictum that the best course of action is to blame the Americans:

"He was reluctant to speculate what the substance of the JTF2 complaint was but said it could stem from a soldier’s disquiet with how joint operations with the U.S. were conducted.

“It could be someone queasy about American procedures as opposed to our own,” Mr. Taylor said."

How he reached this marvelously convenient conclusion when the story starts out alleging one JTF2 operator made allegations against another, who presumably is a Canadian soldier, without any proof or even allegation he does not bother explain.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/commandos-complaint-sparked-newly-revealed-probes-into-handling-of-afghan-prisoners/article1707797/

[Pegcity]

I thought our media was prohibited from reporting on the actions of JTF2?

[PuckChaser]

I thought our media was prohibited from reporting on the actions of JTF2?

Anything they can get from Access to Information is fair game. 99% of it is classified though, so they can't get that stuff with AtI.

[Journeyman]

I thought our media was prohibited from reporting on the actions of JTF2?

Not at all. The "freeedom of the press" outcry would be horrific.

The unit has Public Affairs staff who produce/vet media reports that are promulgated, but by and large, CSOR, 427 SOAS, and CJIRU are the more public faces of CANSOFCOM.

[milnews.ca]

1)  Statement By The Director Of Staff For The Strategic Joint Staff:

Rear-Admiral Robert Davidson, Director of Staff for the Strategic Joint Staff, Canadian Forces, issued the following statement today:

“The members of the Canadian Forces have been operating in the very complex Afghan theatre for almost a decade. Whenever CF members have been alleged not to have met our high standards of conduct, we have moved quickly to investigate and, where appropriate, lay charges.

The Canadian Forces National Investigation Service (CFNIS) conducts investigations when allegations of either a service or criminal offence are made. As with other police services, the CFNIS investigators must respect the rights of the individuals when conducting their investigations. As well, there may be requirements for operational security. Thus, it would not be the norm for such investigations to be advertised to the public. However, the CFNIS, like any other police service, does announce when charges are laid as a result of an investigation, and the resulting trial is normally open to the public.

These principles apply equally to the two investigations and the Board of Inquiry being reported. The initial investigation, known as “Sand Trap 1” looked at allegations pertaining to a member of the CF and to related responses of the Canadian Special Operations Forces chain of command. The investigation resulted in no charges being laid. However, it identified other matters that warranted a second investigation, known as “Sand Trap 2”, which is ongoing. As well, a board of inquiry was convened to examine administrative policies, procedures and accountability.

Any speculation about these matters while investigative processes are ongoing is unhelpful and may taint the environment in which the investigation is taking place. As such, we cannot comment further on this matter. We ask that the independent investigation process be respected while it follows its course.”

2)  A speculative moment, from Peter Worthington via QMI Media:

.... Speculation runs rampant from unacceptable treatment of prisoners to smuggling drugs — all without much in the way of details.

The original 2008 investigation was titled “Sand Trap I,” with no charges laid, but a report written by Chief of Defence Staff, Gen. Walter Natynczyk that led to a wider investigation called “Sand Trap II,” with more allegations and broader implications. One assumes it is still on-going.

The trouble with our secretive commando force that proponents like to hint is as good as — or better than — Britain’s SAS, or the U.S. Delta Force, Rangers, Green Berets, etc., is there’s no way the public can ever know.

There’s a heck of a lot of “wannabe” in secret commandos — and JTF2 members adapt to the colouring with gusto.

Maybe they are as good as their quiet publicity implies. Maybe not. They are presented as highly trained, physically and mentally fit guys who shun publicity and whose purpose in Afghanistan is to go behind the enemy lines and kill high-ranking al-Qaida and/or Taliban leaders.

That’s a valid role — but no one knows how effective it is, has been, or ever will be.

Canadian regimental soldiers in Afghanistan have mixed feeling about JTF2. For soldiers (and they are soldiers, despite not mixing with regimental units), they play the secrecy role, but hardly blend unnoticed into the surroundings. JTF2 (Joint Task Force 2 — there is no JTF1) members are distinguished in camp, often by beards, wearing dark non-uniform clothes, sunglasses and ear pieces. Sort of Men in Black without the humour.

They won’t allow photos taken of themselves, won’t talk to strangers, and regimental soldiers tend to resent them.

(....)

One can applaud the idea of an elite commando force, but a secret army within the army is anathema to democracy. And ultra-secrecy seems a formula for potential corruption and abuse — which is what the present investigation into JTF2 is all about.

[Rider Pride]

Remember a couple years ago when all the media coverage about the CF and CF in Afghanistan was generating good will towards us (the CF us), and there were a few warnings that the "backlash" will come;

The backlash is on full court press.

[cudmore]

We've just filed this story below on cbc.ca, radio and TV. More on the National tonight.
It's about JTF2 and two CFNIS investigations called Sand Trap, investigating allegations of wrongdoing in Afghanistan.
Some allegations were investigated, with no charges.   Other investigations are still ongoing.
shared here, from my perspective, for conversation purposes:


There are calls for public oversight of an elite military unit amid allegations that Canadian soldiers were involved in improper killings of Afghans.

Federal politicians and a former member of the military are making the calls in light of a series of closed-door investigations in Ottawa that have been looking into the explosive claims involving the covert unit, Joint Task Force 2.

The allegations included claims that members of JTF2 witnessed American soldiers killing an unarmed man, and, in a separate incident, that a member of JTF2 killed a man who was surrendering.

Earlier this year, CBC News reported that the first probe - named Sandtrap - looked into the allegations that a Canadian was involved in the 2006 shooting death of an Afghan who had his hands up in the act of surrender. That probe ended without any charges.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/12/01/canada-jtf2-investigation.html#ixzz16tsF4VN5

[GAP]

It never ceases to amaze me how some segments of our polite society think a war should be waged.......

[BulletMagnet]

 

That's about all that needs to be said about this.... Ahh the Communist Broadcasting Corporation what a waste of money

[ObedientiaZelum]

Did he have his hands up or was he preparing for a double handed judo chop?

[cudmore]

"communist broadcasting corporation"  that's awesome!

this is the allegation that is still being investigated:

"The allegations included claims that members of JTF2 witnessed American soldiers killing an unarmed man."   (full stop.  copy and past error earlier. that included erroneous info.)
There's also a BOI underway into the conduct command and control of Canadian special forces troops in Afghanistan, and here at home.
General Gosselin's in charge.  Military docs show the BOI has interviewed more than 100 witnesses so far.


 

[recceguy]

Did he have his hands up or was he preparing for a double handed judo chop?

How many bombers have walked up to their target with their hands up?

[E.R. Campbell]

There is a problem with the oversight of secret operations and agencies. While I have no objection to oversight, per se, the acts and proceedings and outcomes of all such oversight ought to be as secret as the operations and agencies involved. There is, already, far too much public 'knowledge' of some agencies and operations - 'knowledge' which is very incomplete and, therefore, useless to the public.

Did some JTF2 members do some things wrong? Almost certainly. Is there a system in place to discover and rectify problems? I sincerely hope so. Is it anyone's business, except for a very few, properly cleared insiders? No.


Edit: typos

[BulletMagnet]

The funny thing is there are HUNDREDS of BOIs conducted overseas for a thousand different reasons only reason this one is "Important" is the it has CANSOF on it so it must be cool. As for Command and Control did it ever occur to the media that CANSOFCOM initiated the inquiry themselves to make sure everything was being done above board?.... Hmmm you know just a new perspective many commands do that from time to time making sure that everything is smooth and legal.

[recceguy]

Time for CBC  to hand out their Christmas bonuses, which means they need to score points and suck another chunk of cash from the taxpayer for their welfare corporation.

"If the story doesn't exist, we'll invent it."

[PuckChaser]

So the first probe ended without any charges, therefore there was either nothing done wrong or no evidence, yet it's still mentioned? What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Now you're running a story about JTF2 individuals reporting that ANOTHER country did something wrong.... Shouldn't the person that reported it be patted on the back for reporting a possible violation of LoAC?

I remember when Sandtrap first came out in the media, I heard that the Assaulters will report everything that might be a little bit fishy as a way to C-Y-A. If they didn't, and something hit the media, the unit would be stood down so fast your head would spin.

Cudmore, you are also incorrect in your posting here by linking Sandtrap 1 and Sandtrap 2 as both ongoing investigations. As I stated above, ST1 which involved JTF2 operators was concluded with no charges, AKA innocent.

[dogger1936]

So what an investigation. Glad to see it. More should be done. Maybe some BOI's should look into some leaderships incompetence...everyone talks about it....yet they are still around.

[BulletMagnet]

So the first probe ended without any charges, therefore there was either nothing done wrong or no evidence, yet it's still mentioned? What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Now you're running a story about JTF2 individuals reporting that ANOTHER country did something wrong.... Shouldn't the person that reported it be patted on the back for reporting a possible violation of LoAC?

I remember when Sandtrap first came out in the media, I heard that the Assaulters will report everything that might be a little bit fishy as a way to C-Y-A. If they didn't, and something hit the media, the unit would be stood down so fast your head would spin.

Cudmore, you are also incorrect in your posting here by linking Sandtrap 1 and Sandtrap 2 as both ongoing investigations. As I stated above, ST1 which involved JTF2 Assaulters was concluded with no charges, AKA innocent.

There fixed something for you, They have Assaulters another group has Operators with the media looking at this we can at least strive for accuracy so when they write stuff they can get it right to.

[George Wallace]

So?  CBC was upstaged by Julian Assange.  Does CBC now have to outdo WikiLeaks?  Who is vying for the Donald Brittain Award for Best Social/Political Documentary Program at the next Gemini Awards?