Topic: Friendly Advice for potential Infantry Officer candidates

[Technoviking]

Hello All
If you read my profile, you will note that I am an Infantry Officer, and that I am currently at the Infantry School.  I am putting creating this topic as a helpful note for you people who wish to be Infantry Officers.

Bottom Line Up Front: The infantry is one of the toughest trades you could join.  To be an infantry officer is probably one of the toughest things you could train to do.  I say this from experience, having been an Infantryman before I became an Infantry Officer.  Because of this, if you are not in top physical shape, if you are not adverse to being out of communication with your family for extended periods of time, including no Facebook, no Army.ca, no iThings, then joining as an Infantry Officer is not for you.  Don't waste my time and apply to be an Infantry Officer.

I cannot say this enough: if you are not in top physical shape, do not join as an Infantry Officer in spite of what a recruiter may tell you.  We will NOT get you into shape: you must arrive ready to conduct the training, no matter if you are a regular officer candidate or a reserve officer candidate.  To illustrate, I will outline the training system here at the Infantry School.

First, you will have to complete a course called BMOQ-L.  This is a ten-week army-level course, and one of the prerequisites is to be fit in accordance with CF standards.  This means you will have to complete what is called the Expres Test on day one.  (Please note that "Expres" is spelled correctly).  If you fail this, you will go to what is called a PRB, where the commandant of the school will determine your future.  Most likely, he will offer you coaching on the technique of the test, as well as to illuminate to you his philosophy on physical fitness training.  At this point, I would like to emphasise one example of a candidate who failed the Expres Test on day one.  He was coached, and then passed his retest two days later, gaining an exemption level (read: excellent) level.  He failed because of his technique, not because he wasn't fit.  So, during this ten-week course, which has a mix of garrison and field training, you will be challenged, but nothing like that expected of an infantry officer.  As well, you will be required to complete what we call the BFT or LFCPFS.

Once this course is done, you will have to complete the next course, which is called IODP 1.1. This is a dismounted infantry platoon commander's course.  It is 14 weeks long, and one prerequisite is to be fit in accordance with army standards.  This means that you will have to complete the LFCPFS during the first two weeks of the course (normally on day two or three).  If you fail this test, you will proceed to a PRB and most likely offered a retest.  But I must warn you: this test is an ARMY level physical fitness test, which applies to all army trades.  Naturally, as an infantry officer, we will expect you to excel at this test.

The course itself is in what I would term as three parts.  The first is a weapons stage, in which you learn the employment of the platoon weapons.  The next is what I would call the field phase, in which you learn offensive and defensive operations, patrolling and then full spectrum operations.  Finally, there is what I would call the Field Firing phase, in which you learn the ins and outs of setting up and running field ranges.

The field phase is intense.  If you think that you cannot bear to carry upwards of 60 pounds in all weather, day and night, for hours at a time, and then complete complex mental tasks with little sleep or food, then again, do not waste my time: don't join.  You will be in survival mode in the field phase, and incapable of demonstrating the ability to lead others in battle. 

The attrition rate for this course, for all reasons, is roughly 50%.  Not all fail, but some hurt themselves (which is unavoidable in some cases) but most failures I have seen are due to mental fatigue. 

If you are a reservist, completing IODP 1.1 will mean that you are done, and you can then go on to your reserve Regiment as a fully qualified infantry officer.  If you are a regular force candidate, then you have one more course to complete: IODP 1.2. 

This course is actually three courses: Turret Operator, LAV APC Crew Commander, and then IODP 1.2 Mechanised Infantry Platoon Commander.  This course is to the mental what the IODP 1.1 is to the physical.  No longer will you have to worry about your platoon moving at the pace of a walking man, but now you will be going in excess of 50 KMH, cross country, and have to consider assets external to the platoon (tanks, artillery, engineers, etc).  Fitness is vital in this course as well, but considering that IODP 1.1 weeds out the weak, those who make it this far have the requisite level of fitness.  Still, the past two courses have seen abnormally high failure rates.  Some just can't make the mental leap to having to consider several square kilometres at once, as they move about the battlespace.  You need to be an agile thinker to be successful.


So, in conclusion, if you have issues at home (spouse, significant other, family or otherwise), don't waste my time.  If you are not in top physical shape, don't waste my time.  If you cannot stand to be incommunicado for extended periods of time, don't waste my time.  If you have no issues, are in top shape, and can think on your feet and are agressive, a go-getter and are willing to accept and share risk of injury or death, then don't hesitate: join the infantry.  I cannot stress enough that this isn't a job: it's a vocation, a calling.  If you aren't willing to sacrifice personal comfort for this vocation, then again, I cannot say it enough: don't waste my time.  Our Infantrymen deserve only the best, and if you can't be the best for them, then this vocation isn't for you.

[Container]

What an awesome post. Thanks- man that challenge would be awesome.

[Journeyman]

To flesh out the post a bit more, I'll repeat some stats.* These were provided by the Commandant of the Infantry School and posted here last fall.

At the time, the "if you're not up to speed, don't waste Technoviking's time" was merely implied.   



* It's a public service; I've heard that some people's time is apparently way too precious to actually do their own online searching. I can't imagine such a thing, but then, I don't spend much time in the Recruiting threads. 

[Technoviking]

(Yes, this topic is, well, topical to me)
I will further emphasise the kinds of people our soldiers deserve.
I have instructed many infantry officer candidates, and I will tell you the story of two of them, but I will not use their names.

The first was a young fellow, a level-headed, intelligent kind of person.  He was unassuming in that he wasn't over the top.  He was what I would call a quiet professional on course.  He did his assessed tasks well, and then graduated.  He went on and completed his jump course, and then deployed to Afghanistan in 2007.  He was well-respected, and had an amazing career ahead of him.  Then he was killed in action.  He was the kind of fellow who would run to the sounds of the fighting, level-headed, and full of confidence.  He didn't need to rant and rave to get people to react.  He was was in excellent physical shape, and as a result he was always at the front, telling his subordinates to "follow me".  He is the kind of fellow we want.


The second was another guy who not only had a good sense of humour, but was also smart, listened to advice and yet led from the front.  One day in Afghanistan, barely a year after graduating, there he was in Zharey district.  An IED had just killed two soldiers, and more importantly to this story, his company commander was incapacitated from wounds suffered.  This young fellow, surrounded by soldiers with many years experience and several tours each, all turned to him.  He calmly took over.  His reports to higher on the radio were informative, calm and relevant.  He assumed command of the company and completed clearing the objectives that were the company's responsibility: just because two soldiers were killed and many more wounded was no excuse to not complete the assigned task.  Then, due to a changing situation, he had to alter his extraction plan from on foot to a hasty extraction by helicopter, all the while facing threats from the enemy, sometimes manifested by people shooting at them.  So, this young, early-twenties man, fresh from officer training, had to fight a battle, take out enemy who were shooting at them, and manage the extraction by helicopter (which in itself, without the enemy mucking things up for you, a very complex task).  He did this all quietly, calmly, and more importantly successfully.

So, ask yourself: do you want to be him?  Can you hack it?  If your answer is yes: then the infantry may be for you.  If you hesitate in your answer, then don't bother; you'll only waste my time...and yours.

(Edited for formatting)

[NavyShooter]

Damn.

I wish ALL officers went through this.

When you find yourself working for one of those that can calm the storm, you want them to stay, and you want to stay with them.  I've worked with/for both extremes, but I'm certain those I've worked with have never faced the extreme circumstances your colleagues have served through.

We serve in different worlds. 

For those choosing to lead, lead well. 

NS

[Infanteer]

Sounds pretty intense - I don't think I'm interested....

[Technoviking]

Sounds pretty intense - I don't think I'm interested....

[medicineman]

So you're saying allowances wouldn't be made if I were a little older than most of the candidates, some of the staff and had some body bits a little on the wrong side of functional?

MM

[Technoviking]

So you're saying allowances wouldn't be made if I were a little older than most of the candidates, some of the staff and had some body bits a little on the wrong side of functional?

MM

Some people don't get it that gender and age have no bearing on our assessment of people. 


(NOTE: This isn't directed at Medicineman: he knows what the deal is)

[medicineman]

Just checking - I hear it on a daily basis almost about "age and gender should have some modicum of bearing on how I'm employed" stuff... .

MM

[Redeye]

Sounds pretty intense - I don't think I'm interested....

Me neither.  That sounds like it sucks!

This must have been what the "F*** it I quit" guys heard in the Commandant's address when I got my degree from the University Of Fire And Movement.

But to those reading and considering applying, this is the truth.  The process is hard.  It will probably be the hardest thing in your life, I think it probably was for me.  But nothing will replace the feeling of standing on grad parade at the end of 1.1 (which as a Reservist was the end of the line for me) knowing I'd done it.

[Technoviking]

But nothing will replace the feeling of standing on grad parade at the end of 1.1 (which as a Reservist was the end of the line for me) knowing I'd done it.

For me it was the satisfaction on grad parade of turning to the BMOQ-L grads (then called "phase 2 grads"), and saying "Hey, fellas, well done!  Now look around.  This time next year, half of you won't be here where I am today".

The sense of accomplishment for IODP 1.1 was probably even better than 1.2 for me.  1.2 was almost anti-climatic. 

[Michael O'Leary]

I just recall that day we graduated and could turn in our pila and gladii one last time before heading off to our battalions.   

[Pusser]

Damn.

I wish ALL officers went through this.

When you find yourself working for one of those that can calm the storm, you want them to stay, and you want to stay with them.  I've worked with/for both extremes, but I'm certain those I've worked with have never faced the extreme circumstances your colleagues have served through.

We serve in different worlds. 

For those choosing to lead, lead well. 

NS

I've always felt that being calm in the storm is an admirable trait and should be encouraged.  Unfortunately, many in the Navy don't seem to agree.  In many people's view if you're not running around screaming direction, you're not leading.  This has always driven me nuts.  I grew tired of being dumped on for NOT panicking.

[NavyShooter]

I've been sitting in my boss's chair for the past week or so.

The first couple of days, I felt like all I was doing was reacting.  Putting out fires whenever they came up, and putting band-aids on things.  Chicken with it's head cut-off.

Now I've caught up a bit, but the pace is still...well...almost frantic.  Part of it is having a department that's torn between training, maintenance, SWP activities, and repairs.  Part of it is being down 60% of the people due to burning off leave, training, etc.  Part of it is that the folks we do have seem very junior. 

This is the way experience is won...through doing. 

Two words that I try to remind myself of each day when things get "busy".....Relaxed Composure. 

I had a discussion with my Dad late last fall, and those two words struck me, and I'm trying to focus on them when times get...busy.  Jumping into action immediately is all too easy. 

Forcing myself to relax, gathering my thoughts on the task, and giving a well composed response is working better.

I've had discussions with friends of mine in the army, and their thoughts on the Navy's leadership are along the lines that "A decent Army Corporal has more leadership skills than most of the C&PO's mess, and all of the Wardroom combined." 

Some days, I tend to agree with them.  Most days, I try to prove them wrong.

NS

[Halifax Tar]

I've had discussions with friends of mine in the army, and their thoughts on the Navy's leadership are along the lines that "A decent Army Corporal has more leadership skills than most of the C&PO's mess, and all of the Wardroom combined." 

Some days, I tend to agree with them.  Most days, I try to prove them wrong.

NS

I think this may be a bit harsh. Having worked both operationally and base side with the Army and the Navy I would have to say it comes down to the person, training be damned. Not every Infantry Officer who makes it through the training TV talks about is going to turn out peaches.

[Technoviking]

I think this may be a bit harsh. Having worked both operationally and base side with the Army and the Navy I would have to say it comes down to the person, training be damned. Not every Infantry Officer who makes it through the training TV talks about is going to turn out peaches.

I agree 100%.  From my very limited experience with working with Naval officiers (MARS officers), I have been quite impressed with them.  And you're right, just because you "survive" infantry officer training doesn't equal success in that trade.

[ArmyRick]

I have to admit, I don't envy the infantry officers. I was doing my 3B (Inf) when their was a DP1.2 course going on. They were getting slammed with estimates on Sunday night prior to heading to the field. What a way to start a week.

[NavyShooter]

Apologies, in looking at my response above, I think I derailed the original intent of the thread.

NS

[ballz]

The field phase is intense.  If you think that you cannot bear to carry upwards of 60 pounds in all weather, day and night, for hours at a time, and then complete complex mental tasks with little sleep or food, then again, do not waste my time: don't join.

On that note, I will pass along here a tidbit of info from the OIC of DP1.1 that he told my platoon in sort of a Q&A period that was set up by our course officer. We were lucky enough to have that Q&A so for anybody, like myself, soaking all this info up in prep for DP1.1 this summer, he said you should, at a minimum, be able to ruck 75 lbs, 15km, in 2h15m, before showing up on course. Just thought I'd pass that along for anybody wanting to set quantifiable goals.

Beyond that TV, just wondering if your post was prompted by the PRBs you are now swamped with because of the defensive ex that the Ph III course just finished, or is that just a coincidence

[Technoviking]

Beyond that TV, just wondering if your post was prompted by the PRBs you are now swamped with because of the defensive ex that the Ph III course just finished, or is that just a coincidence

Nope, in fact, those guys from 1.1 all still had the hunger, drive and desire, but just need a "do over" with a bit more mentoring.  It was BMOQ-L's string of VW's on week one of the course.  It was refreshing to see/hear that string from 1.1 all lay bare their desire that for them, it's "Infantry or Bust" as far as they were concerned.  They have the desire, it's just that they need a bit more time is all.

[BC Old Guy]

in prep for DP1.1 this summer, he said you should, at a minimum, be able to ruck 75 lbs, 15km, in 2h15m, before showing up on course.

Why is this load, distance and time  a minimum standard?  This is faster, with a heavier load than the BFT - which has been validated and is the army standard.  This is a 9 min km - compared to the almost 11 min km required in the BFT, without consideration of other factors.

I've talked with vets who have completed training and ops with similar loads, and they regret the damage this caused to their bodies - often evident only years later.  The article on the "Weight of War" (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,99486.0.html) should be considered.

Yes - in operations, the heavy load, and the faster speed may be needed - but should we accept that as the default for all training, all work-ups exercises and all operations?  Or should we be striving to develop equipment which is lighter, and Tactics, Technique's and Practices that, as the default, don't cause excessive injury to the soldiers we lead?

Yes - the Infantry Officer course is tough - it always has been (with variances over the years).  I've been using similar warnings to the officer applicants at my current unit - and I wouldn't want the course to be watered down.  However, I do question some of the arbitrary standards that are applied.

[GAP]

I wouldn't want to be wearing all the gear you guys now wear, humping in the heat .......

I thought our ruck was heavy, but now with all the ballistic stuff on top of that, it's gotta be murder....my 

[ballz]

Why is this load, distance and time  a minimum standard?  This is faster, with a heavier load than the BFT - which has been validated and is the army standard.  This is a 9 min km - compared to the almost 11 min km required in the BFT, without consideration of other factors.

To be clear, this load, distance and time, is not a minimum standard... The minimum standard is the BFT, which as TV said you have to do right at the start of course to continue.

This load, distance, and time was given to me, because I asked for a quantifiable goal to pursue that would replicate what I would be going through on field exercises.

I've talked with vets who have completed training and ops with similar loads, and they regret the damage this caused to their bodies - often evident only years later.  The article on the "Weight of War" (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,99486.0.html) should be considered.

Yes - in operations, the heavy load, and the faster speed may be needed - but should we accept that as the default for all training, all work-ups exercises and all operations?  Or should we be striving to develop equipment which is lighter, and Tactics, Technique's and Practices that, as the default, don't cause excessive injury to the soldiers we lead?

Yes - the Infantry Officer course is tough - it always has been (with variances over the years).  I've been using similar warnings to the officer applicants at my current unit - and I wouldn't want the course to be watered down.  However, I do question some of the arbitrary standards that are applied.

While I've got an opinion, mine stinks... But TV is certainly the right person to answer your questions and I am sure he will be doing so shortly

But I do like the idea of striving for lighter equipment

[CDN Aviator]

Why is this load, distance and time  a minimum standard?

If you read carefuly, it is not a "standard", it is a recomendation on what level you should be at to make your life a bit more bearable.

  This is faster, with a heavier load than the BFT - which has been validated and is the army standard. 

The BFT is the army's minimum standard. Combat rarely happens at minimum standards.

[BC Old Guy]

This load, distance, and time was given to me, because I asked for a quantifiable goal to pursue that would replicate what I would be going through on field exercises.

Sorry - I'm not attacking you, but the person who gave you the info.  I'm glad you got the info - I don't think its incorrect.  However, I think the Inf School should take a close look at what they require during the conduct of their training.  The BFT is the minimum standard, however, when I see statements such as

he said you should, at a minimum, be able to ruck 75 lbs, 15km, in 2h15m,

  I understand that to be the de facto minimum standard, instead of the official standard.

[GAP]

It sounds more like a "train like you will work" standard than a minimum...

[BC Old Guy]

Rather than debate the nuances of words used, I'll return to the theme of the original post:

Infantry officer training is mentally and physically demanding.  Those who wish to be infantry officers need to be prepared.  The information provided by Technoviking is very good.  Anyone planning on being an infantry officer should read and heed.

[ArmyRick]

TV,

On the Infantry 3B Course (rthose that don't know, its the WO qualification), candidates can be assessed as either platoon commander or platoon 2IC roles to pass. Is it the same on 1.1 and 1.2 INF Courses?

I found that PL 2IC roles were more checklist like and were far less mentally stressfull than being in the PL Comd role. I still remember being the first guy in the breach as PL COMD (fighting patrol-ambush) on first night of the dismounted offensive week. The estimate and the backbriefs I think were more nerve racking than trying to complete the actual mission.

My advice to future infantry officers, imagine being sleep deprived, exhausted and hungry, now you also have to THINK (using the combat estimate as your tool) and come up with justifiable COA (Course of Action or a plan in simple terms). Be prepared, its not like NCM DP1 where you can get away with being a ballsy and fit pack mule (far less thinking on the course).

Good luck to those who give it a honest go!

[Technoviking]

TV,

On the Infantry 3B Course (rthose that don't know, its the WO qualification), candidates can be assessed as either platoon commander or platoon 2IC roles to pass. Is it the same on 1.1 and 1.2 INF Courses?

I found that PL 2IC roles were more checklist like and were far less mentally stressfull than being in the PL Comd role. I still remember being the first guy in the breach as PL COMD (fighting patrol-ambush) on first night of the dismounted offensive week. The estimate and the backbriefs I think were more nerve racking than trying to complete the actual mission.

My advice to future infantry officers, imagine being sleep deprived, exhausted and hungry, now you also have to THINK (using the combat estimate as your tool) and come up with justifiable COA (Course of Action or a plan in simple terms). Be prepared, its not like NCM DP1 where you can get away with being a ballsy and fit pack mule (far less thinking on the course).

Good luck to those who give it a honest go!

Hey there
The Infantry Officers on DP 1.1 and 1.2 will act as pl 2IC, but they aren't "hard assessed" on it, not like a candidate on 3B.  It's just the leadership aspect of it. So, a debrief may be "Your Cas Evac and PW points were too far apart, you didn't do x, y or z, but your platoon knew you were in charge and for a guy who knows nothing of the tasks of a Pl 2IC, you gave it a good attempt.  Well done."

As for the weight/distance thing posted earlier: no, it's not a standard.  It's one officer's opinion on what you probably should be able to do in order to meet the demands of the course.  That's all.  And it's probably a very good estimate. 

[Redeye]

My advice to future infantry officers, imagine being sleep deprived, exhausted and hungry, now you also have to THINK (using the combat estimate as your tool) and come up with justifiable COA (Course of Action or a plan in simple terms). Be prepared, its not like NCM DP1 where you can get away with being a ballsy and fit pack mule (far less thinking on the course).

This is great advice.  I've had the privilege of sitting on several officer selection boards and I usually frame up a question to convey this sort of advice or idea - because I don't think a lot of applicants get that this is what they'll need to do - they need to be functioning far beyond just "survival mode" and need to be able to use the estimate process, come up with a workable plan, convey that plan to a bunch of candidates who are almost zombified themselves, and also to the DS.  The School does a good job of forcing you to use the estimate process to prove you can and to make all the considerations, and that is a large part of why it's not enough to just be able to physically endure the hardship of the course.  You have to be able to lead others through it because that is what is expected of the course candidates who made it to grad parade.

[Italiansoldier13]

What is involved in the fitness testing? I am  pretty physically fit been working out ritually since I started highschool but I wouldnt mind having an idea to work towards. I know the cadet testing is based on Standing long jump, pushups, pacer run, and situps. I have a feeling the officer fitness is far more difficult and covers more.

[Michael O'Leary]

What is involved in the fitness testing? I am  pretty physically fit been working out ritually since I started highschool but I wouldnt mind having an idea to work towards. I know the cadet testing is based on Standing long jump, pushups, pacer run, and situps. I have a feeling the officer fitness is far more difficult and covers more.

You will find that searching the site will answer most of your questions:

site:army.ca PT test

[original_brad]

I've heard rumours that the infantry school will be conducting their own form of fitness testing for the CAP/ BMOQ-Land courses.  Any word on this??

[ArmyRick]

OK, enough with the rumours, the facts are you are assessed "formally" with the BFT (13 KM, decent load, under 2 Hours 30 minutes or there abouts).

If you are going to be an officer, than it should really not matter WHAT the PT standards are. As an Officer (infantry or otherwise) you are expected to lead by example and this starts with a high standard of Physical Fitness. As an officer you are expected to perform to a higher standard than the troops, end story. If you are not prepared for this (it starts with the right mind set) than seriously re-think your career path about pursuing a commission.

CF Officers must display a high degree of professionalism, conduct, leadership and fitness.

Before beggining a career as an officer I reccomend a very simple regime of running (don't worry about distances aim for 30-45 minutes continious), long distance walking (very improtant) and the basic calisthetics such as push ups, chin/pull ups, jump squats, leg raises, sit ups. Make it a habit to start at 5 in the morning. Get used to it.

Biggest thing, get your head into it 100% or don't waste the CF's time.

[Technoviking]

I've heard rumours that the infantry school will be conducting their own form of fitness testing for the CAP/ BMOQ-Land courses.  Any word on this??

This rumour is completely false.
The prerequisite level of fitness for BMOQ-L is the CF Standard (aka "ExPres Test").

During BMOQ-L you will be required to achieve the Army level of fitness (aka "BFT").

[DELTADOG13]

Just to give you some insight. The second officer Techno Viking talks about was my Pl Comd. He started the tour as the junior Pl Comd and finished as the senior Pl Comd. He was decorated for said  incident. He was and still is the best combat officer I've ever met. I would follow him to hell and back!

DELTADOG13

[Technoviking]

Just to give you some insight. The second officer Techno Viking talks about was my Pl Comd. He started the tour as the junior Pl Comd and finished as the senior Pl Comd. He was decorated for said  incident. He was and still is the best combat officer I've ever met. I would follow him to hell and back!

DELTADOG13

I was hoping that he would have received something higher for his acts that day, but that day is still with me, for both good reasons, and obviously bad reasons.

[daftandbarmy]

So, in conclusion, if you have issues at home (spouse, significant other, family or otherwise), don't waste my time.  If you are not in top physical shape, don't waste my time.  If you cannot stand to be incommunicado for extended periods of time, don't waste my time.  If you have no issues, are in top shape, and can think on your feet and are agressive, a go-getter and are willing to accept and share risk of injury or death, then don't hesitate: join the infantry.  I cannot stress enough that this isn't a job: it's a vocation, a calling.  If you aren't willing to sacrifice personal comfort for this vocation, then again, I cannot say it enough: don't waste my time.  Our Infantrymen deserve only the best, and if you can't be the best for them, then this vocation isn't for you.

Hmmmm.. doesn't sound too friendly to me! 

Any particular reason for posting this information? I'm assuming that you're trying to help aspiring junior officer candidates get ready for training this summer, and that you've seen some people come through who were not well prepared (personally or by the system) to succeed on the course.

[Technoviking]

Hmmmm.. doesn't sound too friendly to me! 

Any particular reason for posting this information? I'm assuming that you're trying to help aspiring junior officer candidates get ready for training this summer, and that you've seen some people come through who were not well prepared (personally or by the system) to succeed on the course.

I say "friendly" because I'm trying to be nice to those who deserve it most: our infantrymen and those infantry officer candidates who want to lead them. 

But the reason was posted a bit earlier: many young lads have been sold a bill of good, or just didn't fully comprehend what it takes to be an infantry officer, and they take up space in the "system" from those who do want to be that.  That's all.


(ANd yes, helping those who want it, and clarifying what it is for those who aren't sure, or who have false ideas of what it means)

[ballz]

(ANd yes, helping those who want it, and clarifying what it is for those who aren't sure, or who have false ideas of what it means)

And you've done a heck of a job at that so far, through the many PMs I've sent and these threads. Prepare for a barrage of more as 24 May comes closer, I apologize in advance

Cheers

[Spandrel]

Just to add some context, one fine day in Afghanistan I was near a scale, so I weighed my kit, the normal kit I wore/carried on an average patrol (normally a 4 x weekly event at the minimum).   The shortest patrols were normally clearing patrols in and around the TI to a radius all around the position of about 1500m, so do the math.  Directed patrols into the villes or other times were longer.

My kit, plain-Jane, weighed 75lbs.  Before the weight of extra water, extra batteries, an M72 or "other Force Protection equipment".

So be ready to carry and keep up.

BTW I was a Cavalry soldier, not infantry, so I'd suggest to orient your fitness level accordingly.  Everything TV says is 100% ccorrect, so if you have doubts of ability or drive, remuster out of the Combat Arms now.

[DELTADOG13]

Techno Viking,

I was hoping he would get more too. Something along the lines of a MSC or MMV. The General that day tried to have him reconsider his release. Sometimes you have to make hard career choices and get on with it.

DD13

[PrairieBoy]

This is all really good advice, and I thank you for it!

I'll admit, I'm not in the best physical shape. Oh I'm active, I enjoy rugby and bicycling and other things, but I'm still working on getting into top physical shape for my BMOQ. However, Infantry Officer is the thing I want most out of the Army, and I'll do whatever the Forces asks me to do if it means I can be an Infantry Officer.

[Ayrsayle]

Thank you TV - This post (and subsequent replies, etc) was perhaps the most informative piece of information available to us civilians looking into joining the Infantry. The Recruiters by and large were unable to provide information outside of "It's a hard job, are you fit?"

In fact, it was this post which made me change my mind on my application. I was not considering becoming an Infantry Officer, but sat down with your questions for a week and realized this was the kind of challenge I wanted from my career. Thank you for the honesty, I found it quite inspiring.

[Technoviking]

Thank you TV - This post (and subsequent replies, etc) was perhaps the most informative piece of information available to us civilians looking into joining the Infantry. The Recruiters by and large were unable to provide information outside of "It's a hard job, are you fit?"

In fact, it was this post which made me change my mind on my application. I was not considering becoming an Infantry Officer, but sat down with your questions for a week and realized this was the kind of challenge I wanted from my career. Thank you for the honesty, I found it quite inspiring.

You're welcome.  And I hope that one day you will know the feeling of being an Infantry Platoon Commander.  Though it may not seem it at times during your training, it's more than worth it.

Cheers!

[spanishflame]

I would like to ask a question to you Technoviking.

I am a Corporal in a support trade. I am thinking of applying for either CEOTP or UTPNCM to become an Infantry Officer. It is something I always wanted to do. I am in pretty decent physical condition. I could do a BFT every week with no problem at all. However I am not the best runner. No matter how much I train I cannot get higher than level 9 on the express test. However I can run 10 k in 50 minutes everyday. Would that be a major issue?

Thank you Sir

[Technoviking]

I would like to ask a question to you Technoviking.

I am a Corporal in a support trade. I am thinking of applying for either CEOTP or UTPNCM to become an Infantry Officer. It is something I always wanted to do. I am in pretty decent physical condition. I could do a BFT every week with no problem at all. However I am not the best runner. No matter how much I train I cannot get higher than level 9 on the express test. However I can run 10 k in 50 minutes everyday. Would that be a major issue?

Thank you Sir

If you can ruck with weight beyond the BFT weight, and if you can do level 9 on the express, and 10k in 50 mins, you should have no issues at all.  Physically, anyway.  The main obstacle I find with candidates is their psychological barriers.  We have all faced them, and we have all needed help getting past them.  You already have the basics down, I assume (the soldier skills), which should put you in a good position.

I wish you all the best!


Techno

[Redeye]

If you can ruck with weight beyond the BFT weight, and if you can do level 9 on the express, and 10k in 50 mins, you should have no issues at all.  Physically, anyway.  The main obstacle I find with candidates is their psychological barriers.  We have all faced them, and we have all needed help getting past them.  You already have the basics down, I assume (the soldier skills), which should put you in a good position.

I wish you all the best!


Techno

That's exactly it.  I'm a terrible runner.  I have screwed up feet from an old injury that I didn't deal with properly (harsh lesson learned) that makes it not at all fun - though I'm trying to improve at it.  However, I can throw on a ruck and get on with the job reasonably well.  On my DP1.1 there was a wide swath of fitness levels - but psychology plays a huge role too.  What I learned is that my body will generally speaking do a heck of a lot more than my brain thinks it can, as long as I have the mental tenacity to push for it.  The people who had the most difficulty on the course were those, regardless of fitness, who couldn't find that edge to keep pushing.  That said, fitness matters, and if you're not committed to working to constantly improve that, you're in for a world of hurt.

The one thing that explains it well is this - there's morning PT every day in garrison, but at night, you'll find a good chunk of the DP1.1 candidates in the gym or running or doing something as well, not because they "have" to, but because they know it will help.

The quote in my signature line was my "mantra" through the course.  It happened to be my high school's motto, and is about the only thing I really liked about the school and kept with me.  It literally translates as "no palms without dust" - coming from the Gladiator days, where in order to walk on the palm frond-covered path out of the arena in triumph, you first had to get dirty.

[BadEnoughDude]

Hello All
If you read my profile, you will note that I am an Infantry Officer, and that I am currently at the Infantry School.  I am putting creating this topic as a helpful note for you people who wish to be Infantry Officers.

Bottom Line Up Front: The infantry is one of the toughest trades you could join.  To be an infantry officer is probably one of the toughest things you could train to do.  I say this from experience, having been an Infantryman before I became an Infantry Officer.  Because of this, if you are not in top physical shape, if you are not adverse to being out of communication with your family for extended periods of time, including no Facebook, no Army.ca, no iThings, then joining as an Infantry Officer is not for you.  Don't waste my time and apply to be an Infantry Officer.

I cannot say this enough: if you are not in top physical shape, do not join as an Infantry Officer in spite of what a recruiter may tell you.  We will NOT get you into shape: you must arrive ready to conduct the training, no matter if you are a regular officer candidate or a reserve officer candidate.  To illustrate, I will outline the training system here at the Infantry School.

First, you will have to complete a course called BMOQ-L.  This is a ten-week army-level course, and one of the prerequisites is to be fit in accordance with CF standards.  This means you will have to complete what is called the Expres Test on day one.  (Please note that "Expres" is spelled correctly).  If you fail this, you will go to what is called a PRB, where the commandant of the school will determine your future.  Most likely, he will offer you coaching on the technique of the test, as well as to illuminate to you his philosophy on physical fitness training.  At this point, I would like to emphasise one example of a candidate who failed the Expres Test on day one.  He was coached, and then passed his retest two days later, gaining an exemption level (read: excellent) level.  He failed because of his technique, not because he wasn't fit.  So, during this ten-week course, which has a mix of garrison and field training, you will be challenged, but nothing like that expected of an infantry officer.  As well, you will be required to complete what we call the BFT or LFCPFS.

Once this course is done, you will have to complete the next course, which is called IODP 1.1. This is a dismounted infantry platoon commander's course.  It is 14 weeks long, and one prerequisite is to be fit in accordance with army standards.  This means that you will have to complete the LFCPFS during the first two weeks of the course (normally on day two or three).  If you fail this test, you will proceed to a PRB and most likely offered a retest.  But I must warn you: this test is an ARMY level physical fitness test, which applies to all army trades.  Naturally, as an infantry officer, we will expect you to excel at this test.

The course itself is in what I would term as three parts.  The first is a weapons stage, in which you learn the employment of the platoon weapons.  The next is what I would call the field phase, in which you learn offensive and defensive operations, patrolling and then full spectrum operations.  Finally, there is what I would call the Field Firing phase, in which you learn the ins and outs of setting up and running field ranges.

The field phase is intense.  If you think that you cannot bear to carry upwards of 60 pounds in all weather, day and night, for hours at a time, and then complete complex mental tasks with little sleep or food, then again, do not waste my time: don't join.  You will be in survival mode in the field phase, and incapable of demonstrating the ability to lead others in battle. 

The attrition rate for this course, for all reasons, is roughly 50%.  Not all fail, but some hurt themselves (which is unavoidable in some cases) but most failures I have seen are due to mental fatigue. 

If you are a reservist, completing IODP 1.1 will mean that you are done, and you can then go on to your reserve Regiment as a fully qualified infantry officer.  If you are a regular force candidate, then you have one more course to complete: IODP 1.2. 

This course is actually three courses: Turret Operator, LAV APC Crew Commander, and then IODP 1.2 Mechanised Infantry Platoon Commander.  This course is to the mental what the IODP 1.1 is to the physical.  No longer will you have to worry about your platoon moving at the pace of a walking man, but now you will be going in excess of 50 KMH, cross country, and have to consider assets external to the platoon (tanks, artillery, engineers, etc).  Fitness is vital in this course as well, but considering that IODP 1.1 weeds out the weak, those who make it this far have the requisite level of fitness.  Still, the past two courses have seen abnormally high failure rates.  Some just can't make the mental leap to having to consider several square kilometres at once, as they move about the battlespace.  You need to be an agile thinker to be successful.


So, in conclusion, if you have issues at home (spouse, significant other, family or otherwise), don't waste my time.  If you are not in top physical shape, don't waste my time.  If you cannot stand to be incommunicado for extended periods of time, don't waste my time.  If you have no issues, are in top shape, and can think on your feet and are agressive, a go-getter and are willing to accept and share risk of injury or death, then don't hesitate: join the infantry.  I cannot stress enough that this isn't a job: it's a vocation, a calling.  If you aren't willing to sacrifice personal comfort for this vocation, then again, I cannot say it enough: don't waste my time.  Our Infantrymen deserve only the best, and if you can't be the best for them, then this vocation isn't for you.

I can't think of anything that's more true than the above statement.

[Muttenthaler]

I've always felt that being calm in the storm is an admirable trait and should be encouraged.  Unfortunately, many in the Navy don't seem to agree.  In many people's view if you're not running around screaming direction, you're not leading.  This has always driven me nuts.  I grew tired of being dumped on for NOT panicking.

I believe that there's a time and a place for everything. There are situations where it might be necessary to jump into a problem headfirst and react to things as they come, because it could save precious time and by extension, lives. In order to be effective at this method, you must detach yourself from your environment and become objective, keeping a level balance of information input and quick decision-making. There are also situations that ALLOW you to relax long enough to organize a "plan of attack" and make the victory over your obstacle easy. Knowing the difference is key, and could mean everything when it comes down to getting your men out alive, or in bodybags.

I was infantry for 7 years as an NCM, and I almost put Infantry down on my ROTP application as my first choice, but other resposibilities are keeping me in my trade. The biggest problem I faced as an NCM was not having leadership that understood the psychology of their position. It is paramount to be able to see the "big picture" in any situation, and understand the purpose and consequence of your decisions. The second-biggest problem I had was not having leadership that was physically fit.

A leader, in any trade, is not a leader if they are not leading by example.

Thanks for listening to my rant.

[daftandbarmy]

Hello All
If you read my profile, you will note that I am an Infantry Officer, and that I am currently at the Infantry School.  I am putting creating this topic as a helpful note for you people who wish to be Infantry Officers.

Bottom Line Up Front: The infantry is one of the toughest trades you could join.  To be an infantry officer is probably one of the toughest things you could train to do.  I say this from experience, having been an Infantryman before I became an Infantry Officer.  Because of this, if you are not in top physical shape, if you are not adverse to being out of communication with your family for extended periods of time, including no Facebook, no Army.ca, no iThings, then joining as an Infantry Officer is not for you.  Don't waste my time and apply to be an Infantry Officer.

I cannot say this enough: if you are not in top physical shape, do not join as an Infantry Officer in spite of what a recruiter may tell you.  We will NOT get you into shape: you must arrive ready to conduct the training, no matter if you are a regular officer candidate or a reserve officer candidate.  To illustrate, I will outline the training system here at the Infantry School.

First, you will have to complete a course called BMOQ-L.  This is a ten-week army-level course, and one of the prerequisites is to be fit in accordance with CF standards.  This means you will have to complete what is called the Expres Test on day one.  (Please note that "Expres" is spelled correctly).  If you fail this, you will go to what is called a PRB, where the commandant of the school will determine your future.  Most likely, he will offer you coaching on the technique of the test, as well as to illuminate to you his philosophy on physical fitness training.  At this point, I would like to emphasise one example of a candidate who failed the Expres Test on day one.  He was coached, and then passed his retest two days later, gaining an exemption level (read: excellent) level.  He failed because of his technique, not because he wasn't fit.  So, during this ten-week course, which has a mix of garrison and field training, you will be challenged, but nothing like that expected of an infantry officer.  As well, you will be required to complete what we call the BFT or LFCPFS.

Once this course is done, you will have to complete the next course, which is called IODP 1.1. This is a dismounted infantry platoon commander's course.  It is 14 weeks long, and one prerequisite is to be fit in accordance with army standards.  This means that you will have to complete the LFCPFS during the first two weeks of the course (normally on day two or three).  If you fail this test, you will proceed to a PRB and most likely offered a retest.  But I must warn you: this test is an ARMY level physical fitness test, which applies to all army trades.  Naturally, as an infantry officer, we will expect you to excel at this test.

The course itself is in what I would term as three parts.  The first is a weapons stage, in which you learn the employment of the platoon weapons.  The next is what I would call the field phase, in which you learn offensive and defensive operations, patrolling and then full spectrum operations.  Finally, there is what I would call the Field Firing phase, in which you learn the ins and outs of setting up and running field ranges.

The field phase is intense.  If you think that you cannot bear to carry upwards of 60 pounds in all weather, day and night, for hours at a time, and then complete complex mental tasks with little sleep or food, then again, do not waste my time: don't join.  You will be in survival mode in the field phase, and incapable of demonstrating the ability to lead others in battle. 

The attrition rate for this course, for all reasons, is roughly 50%.  Not all fail, but some hurt themselves (which is unavoidable in some cases) but most failures I have seen are due to mental fatigue. 

If you are a reservist, completing IODP 1.1 will mean that you are done, and you can then go on to your reserve Regiment as a fully qualified infantry officer.  If you are a regular force candidate, then you have one more course to complete: IODP 1.2. 

This course is actually three courses: Turret Operator, LAV APC Crew Commander, and then IODP 1.2 Mechanised Infantry Platoon Commander.  This course is to the mental what the IODP 1.1 is to the physical.  No longer will you have to worry about your platoon moving at the pace of a walking man, but now you will be going in excess of 50 KMH, cross country, and have to consider assets external to the platoon (tanks, artillery, engineers, etc).  Fitness is vital in this course as well, but considering that IODP 1.1 weeds out the weak, those who make it this far have the requisite level of fitness.  Still, the past two courses have seen abnormally high failure rates.  Some just can't make the mental leap to having to consider several square kilometres at once, as they move about the battlespace.  You need to be an agile thinker to be successful.


So, in conclusion, if you have issues at home (spouse, significant other, family or otherwise), don't waste my time.  If you are not in top physical shape, don't waste my time.  If you cannot stand to be incommunicado for extended periods of time, don't waste my time.  If you have no issues, are in top shape, and can think on your feet and are agressive, a go-getter and are willing to accept and share risk of injury or death, then don't hesitate: join the infantry.  I cannot stress enough that this isn't a job: it's a vocation, a calling.  If you aren't willing to sacrifice personal comfort for this vocation, then again, I cannot say it enough: don't waste my time.  Our Infantrymen deserve only the best, and if you can't be the best for them, then this vocation isn't for you.

So how did it work out last summer TV? Did people pay heed to the friendly advice?

[Technoviking]

So how did it work out last summer TV? Did people pay heed to the friendly advice?

The attrition rate was much lower this year.  It was refreshing.

[Journeyman]

So how did it work out last summer TV? Did people pay heed to the friendly advice?

The attrition rate was much lower this year.  It was refreshing.

It sounds like the standards have dropped.   

[daftandbarmy]

The attrition rate was much lower this year.  It was refreshing.

We had one young lad come back who actually said that, although it was still quite tough, he'd actually learned alot. Of course the CO and I regaled him with horror stories from when we went through, because of course we were tougher when we were his age. Then I thought "Hey, the little bugger probably learned more than I did!".

[Stefan_S]

What Qualifies for top Physical Shape?

[Technoviking]

What Qualifies for top Physical Shape?

Good aerobic, anaerobic and strength.  You have to run, sprint and carry a whack load of "stuff" and the key to this all is to be able to mentally endure hardship.

The course (DP 1.1, the dismounted platoon commander course) has undergone a bit of a make-over recently.  What is being taught hasn't change.  How it is being taught has. 

The course is still 13 weeks in length, but no longer is it in "modules". 

First you will be instructed on how to operate the platoon support weapons.  This is about 2 weeks. 

Next you will be qualified to be a range safety officer on field firing ranges.  This is about 2 weeks as well.

After this, you will learn the theory of operations: defensive, offensive and patrolling.  This will be about 2 weeks (please note: the times are approximate).

During this roughly 6 week period, you will undergo intense physical training (PT) in garrison, all with a view to prepare you for the field.  It culminates with the BFT.  (The course that is underway right now just did their BFT without a single issue.  This is the first time this has happened in quite a while).

The final roughly seven weeks consists of a variety of field exercises.  Some are "Battle Schools" where the candidates move to the "walk" phase (of crawl - walk - run).  They will go through the demonstration and practice of the various operations (defensive, offensive and patrolling).  The other exercises are the run phase, where candidates will go roughly 24/7 for about a week and a bit for each ex.  Following a long-ish weekend to recharge and reset, they will go into the next.

The key to remember is that by the end of the course, you will have traversed roughly 400 km (or so) with rucksacks.  It sounds like a lot (and it is), but it is roughly 10-15 km at a time. 

As the course continues, we are adapting the schedule in order to keep the course "honest" and attempt to strike a balance between instructing people and challenging them.  Our soldiers, their future subordinates, deserve no less.

[ballz]

After this, you will learn the theory of operations: defensive, offensive and patrolling.  This will be about 2 weeks (please note: the times are approximate).

~2 weeks (10 training days?) instead of 6 training days... I am sure this will be a very welcomed change amongst me and my peers.

The final roughly seven weeks consists of a variety of field exercises.  Some are "Battle Schools" where the candidates move to the "walk" phase (of crawl - walk - run).  They will go through the demonstration and practice of the various operations (defensive, offensive and patrolling).  The other exercises are the run phase, where candidates will go roughly 24/7 for about a week and a bit for each ex.  Following a long-ish weekend to recharge and reset, they will go into the next.

Does this change of format translate into less, more, or about the same amount of learning time (I am talking about Battle School, TEWTS, etc, as opposed to the actual FTX*) before you actually get hard-assessed? Does it affect the method that you are assessed(in other words, are there more opportunities to be evaluated in the field in a leadership position, as opposed to TEWTs, etc). Just wondering if you could comment on how it affected / changed the whole "TEWTs vs FTX" evaluations?

*While I realize that the FTXs are also very important "learning time" and for getting experience, they are also where you are getting evaluated as a leader. I am asking about learning time before the FTX for that reason.

Thanks again TV

[daftandbarmy]

What Qualifies for top Physical Shape?

Being able to fit into your mess kit one year following the end of your course 

[Technoviking]

Does this change of format translate into less, more, or about the same amount of learning time (I am talking about Battle School, TEWTS, etc, as opposed to the actual FTX*) before you actually get hard-assessed?

The training time hasn't changed at all;however, to illustrate the change, let me use the example of the defensive.  Previously, you would learn it, go the field, and do it.  But you have yet to learn patrolling or offensive operations.  So, you cannot do the first or third phase of defensive operations (covering force battle, and countermoves).  So, you dig in, watch your arc, blow off ammo, and that's that. 

Now, in the theory, you will learn all phases, and then practice the offensive and patrolling first (knowing enough of the defensive to only be dangerous).  Once you do defensive, you will be able to do the whole thing.

 Does it affect the method that you are assessed(in other words, are there more opportunities to be evaluated in the field in a leadership position, as opposed to TEWTs, etc). Just wondering if you could comment on how it affected / changed the whole "TEWTs vs FTX" evaluations?

Unfortunately, no.  The assessment plan is still in the TP, so there are still TEWTs; however, leadership is assessed throughout, and now there will be more opportunities for field leadership.

*While I realize that the FTXs are also very important "learning time" and for getting experience, they are also where you are getting evaluated as a leader. I am asking about learning time before the FTX for that reason.

Thanks again TV

Yes, there is more time to actually learn prior to being assessed in a role.  And more practice time before being assessed as well.  For example, today they were doing walk-throughs of attacks on the sports field following theory lessons on platoon attacks.  They don't hit the battleschool phase (eg: practice) until the latter part of next week.  By then, they will have walked through offensive, defensive and patrolling, and then will go out and practice at a quicker pace, with plenty of time for AARs, time for assessors to do more coaching/helping/prodding.  The hope is that all will learn better from collective errors prior to the assessment sheets coming out.

[whitford-a18]

Hi,
I have a question regarding education. It states that you need a university degree to qualify to become an infantry officer. I currently am in the 3-yr degree for criminal justice at the University of Winnipeg. Is a 3-yr degree qualify me are do i need to have a 4-yr degree?

[dangles]

Hi,
I have a question regarding education. It states that you need a university degree to qualify to become an infantry officer. I currently am in the 3-yr degree for criminal justice at the University of Winnipeg. Is a 3-yr degree qualify me are do i need to have a 4-yr degree?

As long as it a recognized degree program you will be eligible, although to the best of my knowledge I think that 4-year degree's are preferred and as such you may have a hard time with selection.

[ballz]

Hi,
I have a question regarding education. It states that you need a university degree to qualify to become an infantry officer. I currently am in the 3-yr degree for criminal justice at the University of Winnipeg. Is a 3-yr degree qualify me are do i need to have a 4-yr degree?

By the looks of the UofWinnipeg's website, you're doing a Bachelor of Arts, and your major is Criminal Justice, correct?

[estoguy]

As long as it a recognized degree program you will be eligible, although to the best of my knowledge I think that 4-year degree's are preferred and as such you may have a hard time with selection.

I agree... if you can get a 4 year honours degree, do it. 

It makes a difference in a lot of fields.  I'm a supply teacher at the moment, and if you are a full time teacher, there is a significant difference in pay between someone with a 3-year general degree and a B.Ed and someone who has the 4-year plus B.Ed.

Don't sell yourself short on your education.

[estoguy]

Now, in the theory, you will learn all phases, and then practice the offensive and patrolling first (knowing enough of the defensive to only be dangerous).  Once you do defensive, you will be able to do the whole thing.Unfortunately, no.  The assessment plan is still in the TP, so there are still TEWTs; however, leadership is assessed throughout, and now there will be more opportunities for field leadership.Yes, there is more time to actually learn prior to being assessed in a role.  And more practice time before being assessed as well. 

For those of us interested in a career as an infantry officer, who don't know all the lingo yet, what is involved in a TEWT?  Looking up the term I discovered it meant Tactical Exercise Without Troops.  From the wording, I'm going on a literal translation guessing its an exercise done by the officers without troops being involved?  Or have I over-simplified it? 

Thanks!

[dangerboy]

For those of us interested in a career as an infantry officer, who don't know all the lingo yet, what is involved in a TEWT?  Looking up the term I discovered it meant Tactical Exercise Without Troops.  From the wording, I'm going on a literal translation guessing its an exercise done by the officers without troops being involved?  Or have I over-simplified it? 

Thanks!

That is it, an example of one would be a defensive TEWT.  On this you would plan how you would lay out position, give orders but would not actually dig.

[StevePoole]

If you fail the training before you graduate what happens then? Are you placed with the ncm's? Also if you enroll as an ncm is there a possibility to take an officer course later down the road, being that you have the requirements?

[lethalLemon]

If you fail the training before you graduate what happens then? Are you placed with the ncm's? Also if you enroll as an ncm is there a possibility to take an officer course later down the road, being that you have the requirements?

Well... if you fail (which they try to make sure you don't unless you're a complete sh*tpump; but also, other circumstances could be a result) you'll be re-coursed. If you fail again. You're sent home. Released.

However as an officer you take the training in between the semesters/years of your degree program (whether it is done at a Civilian University or the RMC), so the CF is more worried about you failing the academic portion. Why? Because that's thousands of dollars of free room-and-board, food, uniform, pay cheque, and tuition that they've just wasted and could have used for a more suitable and responsible candidate. In my opinion, if you have to ask what happens if you fail - then you need to do some more work before considering this career path.

There's no other opinion in this career field (Canadian Forces) than doing your best.

[Technoviking]

If you fail the training before you graduate what happens then? Are you placed with the ncm's? Also if you enroll as an ncm is there a possibility to take an officer course later down the road, being that you have the requirements?

To set the record straight, if you are removed from training for any reason, it is only the commandant of the infantry school who will decide to cease your training.  The reasons for ceasing your training include:
Performance;
Voluntary Withdrawal; and
Medical.

(Remember, if you withdraw voluntarily, it is still the commandant who will either grant or not grant your request). 

No matter the reason for ceasing your training, the commandant will make one of several recommendations to your chain of command.  These include:
Recourse;
Revert to NCM;
Compulsary Occupational Transfer; and
Release from the CF.

The most common recommendation is recourse.  The least common is reversion to NCM (Please note that until recently, this option was only available to officer cadets who failed training.  This has been changed to any candidate on DP 1.1 or DP 1.2).

[Pusser]

Well... if you fail (which they try to make sure you don't unless you're a complete sh*tpump; but also, other circumstances could be a result) you'll be re-coursed. If you fail again. You're sent home. Released.

However as an officer you take the training in between the semesters/years of your degree program (whether it is done at a Civilian University or the RMC), so the CF is more worried about you failing the academic portion. Why? Because that's thousands of dollars of free room-and-board, food, uniform, pay cheque, and tuition that they've just wasted and could have used for a more suitable and responsible candidate. In my opinion, if you have to ask what happens if you fail - then you need to do some more work before considering this career path.

There's no other opinion in this career field (Canadian Forces) than doing your best.

NB: "board" means food, mentioning food in addition to "room and board" is redundant. 

Except under specific circumstances, CF members are generally not provided with free room and board and when it is provided, it is a pretty small consideration.

[StevePoole]

Well... if you fail (which they try to make sure you don't unless you're a complete sh*tpump; but also, other circumstances could be a result) you'll be re-coursed. If you fail again. You're sent home. Released.

However as an officer you take the training in between the semesters/years of your degree program (whether it is done at a Civilian University or the RMC), so the CF is more worried about you failing the academic portion. Why? Because that's thousands of dollars of free room-and-board, food, uniform, pay cheque, and tuition that they've just wasted and could have used for a more suitable and responsible candidate. In my opinion, if you have to ask what happens if you fail - then you need to do some more work before considering this career path.

There's no other opinion in this career field (Canadian Forces) than doing your best.

Well I finishing my last year of university this spring so I will already have that. I was merely asking what happens if you fail just to know. Its no challenge Im afraid to take.

[lethalLemon]

NB: "board" means food, mentioning food in addition to "room and board" is redundant. 

Except under specific circumstances, CF members are generally not provided with free room and board and when it is provided, it is a pretty small consideration.

"Greatly subsidized"

Better?

[daftandbarmy]

Heads up all....

TV, what test do they do at Gagetown that requires them to perform pushups?

"A short note to let you know that 2Lt XYZ has ceased trg and will be RTU.

He was EXPRES tested by PSP and failed to meet the minimum requirement for push-ups.  I believe it was more form than strength per se.

Previously, we would have coached him and retested 24 hrs later.  However, a recent CF Grievance Authority decision found the Inf Sch in violation of the CF physical fitness DAOD.  Namely, we can't retest before following the remedial measures outlined in the DAOD.  As he is being RTU, you will have to look after the Initial Counselling and the remedial PT program at your end.

If you decide to send him back this summer, I would recommend that he complete either the EXPRES or BFT at unit level before arriving.  If the member has a valid PT result, we do not retest them here at the School (another result of the CFGA decision)."

[Technoviking]

Heads up all....

TV, what test do they do at Gagetown that requires them to perform pushups?

"A short note to let you know that 2Lt XYZ has ceased trg and will be RTU.

He was EXPRES tested by PSP and failed to meet the minimum requirement for push-ups.  I believe it was more form than strength per se.

Previously, we would have coached him and retested 24 hrs later.  However, a recent CF Grievance Authority decision found the Inf Sch in violation of the CF physical fitness DAOD.  Namely, we can't retest before following the remedial measures outlined in the DAOD.  As he is being RTU, you will have to look after the Initial Counselling and the remedial PT program at your end.

If you decide to send him back this summer, I would recommend that he complete either the EXPRES or BFT at unit level before arriving.  If the member has a valid PT result, we do not retest them here at the School (another result of the CFGA decision)."

I cannot reply because of the taste in my mouth left there from the CFGA decision, but suffice it to say "I don't know..."

[/rant]

[dangerboy]

I wonder what impact this will have on other training centres.  I know in Wainwright if a pers fails an express test, we re-test them in a couple of weeks and the majority of time they pass the re-test, but like CTC the courses are not long enough to fully comply with the remedial measures.

[Pusser]

This approach to the ExPres Test still baffles me.  There is a huge difference between having an "off" day and clutching one's chest and passing out during the test.  They should be treated differently, but they are not.  Both require a three month waiting period before re-attempting.  Ridiculous!

Surely there is more to this story than we see here.  The only remedial action for failing the ExPres Test the first time is "come back in three months and try again."  Just out of curiosity, why is the Infantry School running the ExPres Test in the first place?  Why not just make a course prerequisite a valid ExPres Test result and stay out of that business altogether?

[Wookilar]

Just out of curiosity, why is the Infantry School running the ExPres Test in the first place?  Why not just make a course prerequisite a valid ExPres Test result and stay out of that business altogether?

That is a CTC issue, not so much an Infantry School issue. It stems from an incident 2 years ago where a candidate on Ph3 BFT ended up with extreme heat stroke and experienced a loss of vital signs on way to hospital. Part of the fallout of the BOI was an ExPres test at the start of the course (which, of course, has nothing to do with the actual incident as the guy had never failed a PT test in 2 years, but we had to be seen to do something, but that is another thread all together. That BOI was a freakin trainwreck).

The Arty School, for example, does it day 1 of Ph3.

Wook

[daftandbarmy]

It's summer time... and the livin' is easy... (unless you're headed to Gagetown, of course)

Any cheerful, helpful advice for the fresh meat heading to the sausage machine this year?