Author Topic: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007  (Read 10220 times)

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Offline NCS_Eng

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Last week I flew into Halifax to attend the annual NTO (Naval Technical Officer) Seminar. This is a two day event that allows the technical community as a whole to get a look into how naval projects and procurements are going and get a look into the "future" of the Navy. This year was certainly full of some interesting topics and since people here seem interested in what "toys" the navy is getting (or might be getting) I thought I'd give some bullet points summaries of some of the current projects. Some of these may to known to you, some may be new.

As an aside before I start, the seminar was all UNCLAS information, so no opsec worries here.

I'll start with the Big ticket, high profile projects:

JSS
Going along more or less "On Schedule". Interesting to note that while the big ticket combat systems items have not increased very much in cost since the budget was set two years ago, the cost of building materials (steel, copper ect) has risen dramatically. Unknown what effect this will have on the overall project. Should leave the funded definitions phase soon.

We had a French Naval officer present a look at their Minstral class, which had a lot of the same features we are looking for in JSS, RO/RO Carrier, Joint Command Capability, At-Sea hospital and a moderate amount of troop space. It was built to a hybrid civilian/military standards, and is quite unique in that they actually designed the ship with livability in mind. Its a full decked helicopter carrier however, and represents, to me anyway, the "Cadillac" version, whereas we will probably end up with the Buick version at best.

Amphib ship

This project is for all intents frozen, and will most likely stay that way for a while. So for all of you eagerly looking forward to some kind of USS San Antonio/ HMS Ocean type ship in the near future stop holding your breath. In my opinion (and possibly in my opinion only) we will see this start to go forward only under a conservative majority. Otherwise the money just isn't there.

Arctic Base/Patrol ships

Arctic base is also on hold, but there was mention of a project for the patrol ships being stood up. Given the fact that these will likely be "cheap" as platforms go, I can very well see these happening.

SCSC

SC Squared, as the guys in Ottawa are calling it, is still in very very early stages. We don't know what capabilities it will have, or what it will look like, or even how many we are building. We WANT to build up to 18, in an American style procurement model, one or two a year for over a decade. This is to stop the Boom/Bust cycle that we have been trapped in since the 60s and maybe get a sustainable shipbuilding industry in Canada. Right now we've pointed to a very tentative "in-the-water" date of 2018, which may get pushed in either direction depending on funding and need.

The Subs

The Saga continues, although there was a lot of good news coming out of the seminar about the future of the subs. Lets just say they aren't as worse off as perhaps had been reported. However HMCS Victoria's EDWP is still behind schedule and we will likely have only one semi-operational platform for the next year. The good news is that we are much, much better prepaired for Corner Brook's EDWP now that we know some of the problems involved and it should go much smoother.

2008 Victoria will be looking to achieve full weapons certification and be the first of her class to do so.

Felex

This is a done deal. We got some interesting presentations on the new version of IMCS, which is a done deal as far as money is concerned. It will basically replace the current version with a much smaller physical footprint and enhanced GUI. Also included is a plan to tack on a Battle Damage Control system, which will basically replace the old grease pencil stateboards throughout the ship with a hardened network of "smartboards" that will be located in all the same places you would find a current state board. One a incident is plotted on one board it will be visible to ALL boards on the network and thus save a lot of heart ache in trying to marry the boards.

The Battle Damage feature is still only partially funded, because its an added capability and not simply a replacement of an existing capability.

The Combat Systems types are independently working on there own version of this capability, which will focus on combat systems capabilities and not fires and or floods.

The other piece of kit we saw was the Sirius IR tracking system, which is paid for and will be installed starting this year (not waiting for FELEX to officially start). Very very good tracking and will augment the radar upgrades in FELEX quite well. Combined with ESSM, CIWS Block 1B, and whatever 3D Volume search radar we end up going with for FELEX, our ships will be quite well fitted from a CS perspective.


Anyway, there is a lot of talk around this board about the various projects and I thought you'd all enjoy this little peek into where we are.

Offline FSTO

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An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2007, 11:58:57 »
Great update.
Sad about the Amphib, I was going to be posted into that organization when the freeze came in >:(.  I was going to follow through with my IPS but now that the project has been pushed to the right, I am going to complete my 20 at the end of 2009.

Is there a spot on the DIN that will have the PPT briefs that you saw?

Thanks.

Offline FinClk

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An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2007, 12:34:55 »
Very good info indeed, thanks for enlightening us. Will look forward to see where the uncertainities and items on hold pan out.

Offline IN HOC SIGNO

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2007, 16:27:13 »
Excellent brief.  Thanks for all that real info as opposed to the Rumint we so often feast on in Navy circles. Good news that the JSS is on schedule and I do hope that maybe they can speed up a little.....you didn't mention the viability of keeping the AORs running...or is that OPSEC?

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2007, 16:33:08 »
Thank you for the brief
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2007, 16:34:50 »
My favourite part is highlighted....


Matthew.   ;D

Quote
SCSC

SC Squared, as the guys in Ottawa are calling it, is still in very very early stages. We don't know what capabilities it will have, or what it will look like, or even how many we are building. We WANT to build up to 18, in an American style procurement model, one or two a year for over a decade. This is to stop the Boom/Bust cycle that we have been trapped in since the 60s and maybe get a sustainable shipbuilding industry in Canada. Right now we've pointed to a very tentative "in-the-water" date of 2018, which may get pushed in either direction depending on funding and need.



IMPORTANT - 'Blackshirt' is a reference to Nebraska Cornhuskers Football and not naziism.   National Champions '70, '71, '94, '95 and '97.    Go Huskers!!!!

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2007, 16:37:00 »
I do feel somewhat vindicated after all these years. :)
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline IN HOC SIGNO

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2007, 17:01:43 »
My favourite part is highlighted....


Matthew.   ;D





We've been talking about this for a lot of years. we have to convince politicians to get away from the Regional development model too...but do you think we can convince the provinces to go along....especially Que and Man when it comes to the aviation industry or Que, BC and Atlantic Canada when it comes to marine assests?

Offline NCS_Eng

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2007, 12:36:40 »
Excellent brief.  Thanks for all that real info as opposed to the Rumint we so often feast on in Navy circles. Good news that the JSS is on schedule and I do hope that maybe they can speed up a little.....you didn't mention the viability of keeping the AORs running...or is that OPSEC?

Current ship plans and deployments were outside the scope of the seminar. There was nothing on the viability of the AORs.

Offline painswessex

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2007, 13:20:49 »
This might sound dumb......What is the SCSC project?
"the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,"  - Edmund Burke

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2007, 13:25:23 »
This might sound dumb......What is the SCSC project?

Single Class Suface Combatant

Replacement project for both the Halifax and 280 class

Offline cameron

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2007, 05:33:58 »
Just a question NCS_Eng, if the Amphib ship is frozen, where does this leave the SCTF?
"All men dream: but not equally.  Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible."

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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2007, 07:19:10 »
Just a question NCS_Eng, if the Amphib ship is frozen, where does this leave the SCTF?

Already discussed here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,46042.105.html

I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline STONEY

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2007, 15:41:40 »
Something else that may be of interest to this site are some quotes from Naval Forces Magazine 1/2007  . The FELEX project is expected to continue through 2017. This includes an upgrade to the UYC-501 SHINPADS Combat data system for Hulls 336-341. Replacement of NATO SEA SPARROW with ESSM missle system. Upgrade of PHALANX to the 1B variant.  Upgrade of Bofors Gun to MK3 variant.
Upgrade of HARPOON SSM to the Block II variant. Fitting of Wescam 14PS-MAR optronic system. Upgrade of all Radars. Upgrade of the EW system. Replacement of SLQ-503 decoy system. 
   Two additional programmes that will begin in the next decade include the SCSC programe which will replace the Iroquois Destroyers and seven of the Halifax class. In addition up to 10 OPV'S will be procured to replace the remaining 5 Halifax class. This project will probably be a long protracted ordeal, likely in two batches.  Batch1 3 units to replace Iroquois Class and Batch II , 7 units to replace 7 Halifax class. The OPV'S will likely be an existing design and built at Irving Shipyard in Halifax and be approx 75m in length displacing 1500 tons speed 25kts and indurance of 5000nm at 12 kts.

The author is a naval analyst with AMI international and former US Navy intelligence specialst but God only knows how dated his info is or what his source.

 Cheers.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2007, 15:49:36 »
ESSM is underway right now and most ships have the new Block 1B already, I think the authors info is a little questionable. Every brief we had always had have the SCSC replacing all CPFs and the 280s with the initial batch being command and control platforms with AAD.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline NCS_Eng

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2007, 17:14:45 »
Something else that may be of interest to this site are some quotes from Naval Forces Magazine 1/2007  . The FELEX project is expected to continue through 2017. This includes an upgrade to the UYC-501 SHINPADS Combat data system for Hulls 336-341. Replacement of NATO SEA SPARROW with ESSM missile system. Upgrade of PHALANX to the 1B variant.  Upgrade of Bofors Gun to MK3 variant.
Upgrade of HARPOON SSM to the Block II variant. Fitting of Wescam 14PS-MAR optronic system. Upgrade of all Radars. Upgrade of the EW system. Replacement of SLQ-503 decoy system. 

This is for the most part correct, although replacement of the SHINPADS combat data system is only a small portion of the CCS overhaul and will be done to all ships in class. And as has already been pointed out by Ex-Dragoon, many of these initiatives have already been done as Pre-Felex fits (including Block 1B, HARPOON SSM and SLQ-503 on many ships. ESSM has been started as well). The SPS-49 will be "upgraded" by putting it on the jetty without replacement. The SG-150 will be replaced by a longer range / more precise 3D volume search radar (Not phased array).

Quote
   Two additional programmes that will begin in the next decade include the SCSC programe which will replace the Iroquois Destroyers and seven of the Halifax class. In addition up to 10 OPV'S will be procured to replace the remaining 5 Halifax class. This project will probably be a long protracted ordeal, likely in two batches.  Batch1 3 units to replace Iroquois Class and Batch II , 7 units to replace 7 Halifax class. The OPV'S will likely be an existing design and built at Irving Shipyard in Halifax and be approx 75m in length displacing 1500 tons speed 25kts and indurance of 5000nm at 12 kts.

This portion is speculation. I don't know where he got the numbers or the existence of the "OPVs". While new Patrol vessels are being looked at (there is a good article on modular ships in the spring 2007 MARE Journal) what I understood is that instead of a new ship class they want to have a "stripped down" SCSC package that they can fit on ships for patrol. So take the article with a grain of salt.

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2007, 00:42:06 »
ESSM is underway right now and most ships have the new Block 1B already, I think the authors info is a little questionable. Every brief we had always had have the SCSC replacing all CPFs and the 280s with the initial batch being command and control platforms with AAD.

I forgot to send you the link, but I was doing some reading on the new South Korean KDX-III which has some interesting notes re: our discussion of CIWS options.  They will be installing both a 30mm Goalkeeper and RAM.  Apparently tactically the South Koreans use RAM for inbound missiles, with Goalkeeper being dual-tasked to small vessels interdiction and emergency missile defence.

If I can relocate the information tomorrow, I'll post it....


Cheers, Matthew.   :salute:
IMPORTANT - 'Blackshirt' is a reference to Nebraska Cornhuskers Football and not naziism.   National Champions '70, '71, '94, '95 and '97.    Go Huskers!!!!

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: An Update on Naval Projects: A View from the NTO Seminar 2007
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2007, 00:00:41 »
Here's a link to the thread which covers the KDX-III and discusses thinks like APAR vs SPY-1, etc.

http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=14046&st=0

I should add, the pics which are linked from that thread are spectacular....beautiful warship.


Matthew.   :salute:
IMPORTANT - 'Blackshirt' is a reference to Nebraska Cornhuskers Football and not naziism.   National Champions '70, '71, '94, '95 and '97.    Go Huskers!!!!